Bmi ?

[eyesore]

Has anyone had any problems with these people as far as playing cover tunes out? thanks.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by eyesore

Has anyone had any problems with these people as far as playing cover tunes out? thanks.

Hi eyesore…
Locally over the past 15 years four venues locally which used to have live music have shut it down because lawyers from ASCAP, SESAC etc have contacted them to buy licenses to allow live music (with covers) to be played.

Rather than pay thousands of dollars per year to allow musicians to play for free, they shut down the opportunities. They knew they could ask people to play all originals, but that is a hassle for the venue.

The burden to pay is on the venue, not the performers.

[Aping Leo]

Not personally, but I have heard stories from musician freinds. Unless you are playing in a popular club with a lot of traffic I wouldn't sweat it too much, but they are out there.

[PieterK]

And to think I had no idea how Body Mass Index was related to guitars.

I'm an ASCAP guy personally.

Carry on.

[eyesore]

yeah ; I just don't wanna get anybody jammed up with lawyer stuff.my gigs are pretty much obscure[ not main events].but the local coffee shops won't have me because I play mostly covers.i could sit there and fingerpick stuff that I make up all night; but I think every body can do that.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by eyesore

Has anyone had any problems with these people as far as playing cover tunes out? thanks.

It's up to the venue owner to pay the PROS (Performance Rights Organizations: ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) not the artist who perform at the venues. If you're a venue regardless of size you are required to pay the PROS an annual license to allow artist to play cover songs at your venue... The PROS in turn (are suppose to) pay the songwriters.

[jseth]

It has been said many times on these pages, but THE ARTIST/MUSICIAN is NOT responsible for paying the licensing fees when he plays in a club or coffeehouse... that lies solely with the place of business.

If you choose to make a recording for sale that has songs by other artists on it, THEN you would need to license those songs in order to remain legal...

Here in Corvallis, Oregon (home of Oregon State University), there are a whole bunch of venues who won't/can't afford to pay BMI, ASCAP AND SESCAP, so they don't have live music... for a college town, there are precious few places for a guy like me to play and make any money...

[Jukie]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

It's up to the venue owner to pay the PROS (Performance Rights Organizations: ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) not the artist who perform at the venues. If you're a venue regardless of size you are required to pay the PROS an annual license to allow artist to play cover songs at your venue... The PROS in turn (are suppose to) pay the songwriters.

I'm curious as to how they decide how much the songwriters get unless they know which songs were performed where and when. I'm guessing there's no tracking each song. If they're not tracking, does each songwriter from the beginning of time get a set amount regardless if his/her composition was performed?

[Methos1979]

Here's a very recent story about how BMI killed off a great venue:

There's a local business that is a restaurant and pub. The restaurant on the first floor - about 100 seats - and the pub is on the second floor, about another 50 seats. They are owned by the same people but they have two different names. The guy registered them as separate businesses on the advice of local officials.

The pub has had live entertainment one or two nights a week for about ten years. The restaurant has no live entertainment. The two areas are completely separated and there is no bleed over sound-wise between the two. The man paid his licensing fees to BMI that whole time.

A couple months ago a BMI rep came in and did an audit and to them that they needed to pay extra fees based on the 100 seats in the restaurant below even though they are separate and no live entertainment is used down there. They went on to say that they also wanted the owners to pay BACK FEES for the whole ten years they had been paying.

They guy fought it with BMI but got no where. It would have cost him a ton of money to get a lawyer and fight it (and maybe lose) and too much to pay the extra fees. So he just stopped having live entertainment. This really sucks because it was a great venue to play and one of the few left.

I know associations like BMI and the others supposedly help songwriters and musicians get paid for their work, but to these guys seem like the mob. I have no respect for the organization at all. Just like the record companies from days gone by, they are just killing the music industry.

[reidplum]

If the restaurant has recorded music or pipes in music from a radio station or other source, then they need a license for that area. The idea is that the music contributes to the success of the restaurant, even if it's just background noise, so it's worth something. Just as the restaurant pays for other "inputs" to its success, such as food and drink, the music gets a piece of the action.

Reid

Originally Posted by Methos1979

Here's a very recent story about how BMI killed off a great venue:

There's a local business that is a restaurant and pub. The restaurant on the first floor - about 100 seats - and the pub is on the second floor, about another 50 seats. They are owned by the same people but they have two different names. The guy registered them as separate businesses on the advice of local officials.

The pub has had live entertainment one or two nights a week for about ten years. The restaurant has no live entertainment. The two areas are completely separated and there is no bleed over sound-wise between the two. The man paid his licensing fees to BMI that whole time.

A couple months ago a BMI rep came in and did an audit and to them that they needed to pay extra fees based on the 100 seats in the restaurant below even though they are separate and no live entertainment is used down there. They went on to say that they also wanted the owners to pay BACK FEES for the whole ten years they had been paying.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by Jukie

I'm curious as to how they decide how much the songwriters get unless they know which songs were performed where and when. I'm guessing there's no tracking each song. If they're not tracking, does each songwriter from the beginning of time get a set amount regardless if his/her composition was performed?

It's a mystery we would all like to know! Google search "ASCAP & BMI -- Protectors of Artists or Shadowy Thieves?" for an interesting article on this topic. For terrestrial radio, the PROs go by play list. The main reason artist and songwriters/publishers register with PROs is because it's the only way to get paid if you have a successful radio tune. PROs keep track of number of spins on airplay. They collect payment from radio (radio just pays a umbrella license to each PRO, the cost based on average number of listeners the station has, market, etc...) They keep a percentage of profit for their service and they pay out royalties to artist and publishers. For live performance, as I understand it's the responsibility of the venue owners to make account of what cover songs were played and submit this information to the PROs (quarterly or yearly). I'm sure publishing royalties are not getting paid properly because of poor accounting at the venue.... There is no enforcement mechanism. I'd like to know more about this myself since there are horror stories of ASCAP coming down hard on MAP coffee shops, etc...

[MBE]

Originally Posted by PieterK

And to think I had no idea how Body Mass Index was related to guitars.

I'm an ASCAP guy personally.

Carry on.

That's exactly where my mind went. When the OP asked if anyone had trouble with "these people", I thought he was talking about obese people.

This is what I get for surfing the forum after a 16-hour work day.

[Jupiter Tarts]

Originally Posted by Aping Leo

Not personally, but I have heard stories from musician freinds. Unless you are playing in a popular club with a lot of traffic I wouldn't sweat it too much, but they are out there.

Nah these guys are real thieves and will shake down anyone. I play in a local acoustic guitar meetup circle and we meet at the back of an ice cream parlor. We're 4-10 people depending on who shows up for the day. We're not even really live entertainment save for anyone who wants to venture into the back room on their way to the bathroom. We're just allowed to use the back room.

Long story short, we have no idea how BMI found out about our tiny circle but they demanded fees out of the ice cream parlor owner because we were playing copyrighted songs in a place of business even though we were just using the empty space. The owner stuck up for us and paid the fees so all of us in the circle chip in weekly to help him pay the license.

Makes me mad just thinking about it but on the bright side, the ice cream parlor owner decided to make the most of his new license and holds open mics twice a month now, many of us from the circle from participating and a few other locals who wander in. Silver lining I suppose

[The Bard Rocks]

We all have these horror stories about how they squelch small venues and give us less places to play - what I want to know, how many of us have ever received enough pay from them to even meet our dues?

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

We all have these horror stories about how they squelch small venues and give us less places to play - what I want to know, how many of us have ever received enough pay from them to even meet our dues?

I'm registered with BMI as an artist and publisher. There are no dues.