Superior Drummer 3 training?

[Doug Young]

I suspect the main challenge will be MIDI mapping. There's no standard as far as I know for what a MIDI note represents. If he records something and his kick drum is C2, that may or may not be what your virtual instrument thinks is the kick. With a quick search, it looks like your drummer has some sort of MIDI mapping capability tho, to fix that if needed.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by b1j

2) have him send each pad’s signal to its own instrument track in Studio One. (Not sure about this; I guess this depends on his kit controller.)

3) receive separate instrument tracks for each pad in the e-drum set

4) tell SD3 to recognize the MIDI information with the preset for his brand and model of kit. (You say I can)

Almost.

For step #2, if he is recording the MIDI output, it only needs to be recorded onto one track. One MIDI track can contain all the notes for the different drums. You only need to record each drum to a separate track if you are recording the actual audio signal.

Then for step #3, you just need to import the one MIDI file onto one track in your DAW. That file will contain all the drum notes. Put SD3 as an effect on that track.

Step #4, play it back and see what you get. If the wrong drums are playing, you then see if SD3 has a preset to map to his e-drum kit. If not, it should still be obvious which notes are which drums--kick, snare, hh, toms etc. Then figure out which note in SD3 makes the corresponding sound, and edit the track to move the appropriate MIDI notes to the correct sound.

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by b1j

Good. I’ve been wondering if I could apply the appropriate preset after the fact to already recorded MIDI tracks. It sounds like we might be able to make it work, then.

My wish list:

1) have my brother across the country play drums to my song, which is about 90% done.

2) have him send each pad’s signal to its own instrument track in Studio One. (Not sure about this; I guess this depends on his kit controller.)

3) receive separate instrument tracks for each pad in the e-drum set

4) tell SD3 to recognize the MIDI information with the preset for his brand and model of kit. (You say I can)

If I can clear those hurdles, it will be as if I had the drum kit here with me and recorded the drum parts myself.

He doesn’t have SD3 and doesn’t want to buy it
I don’t have an e-drum set and don’t want to buy one.
We both have Studio One.
He doesn’t want to mix individual drum parts.
I want to use SD3’s vaunted sound sets, and in the process get some experience with its features.

#2 , 3 - Yes, have him route each midi drum pad to a separate midi track and then he can export them to you as separate midi files.

#4 - a. Import each midi file to a separate track in Studio One and then
assign Superior Drummer to each of them.
b. Choose a kit for each track that is your ideal drum sound for each
drum. Say that track 1 is the kick drum. Find the kick drum sound in
SD that is what you want to hear and on that midi track select all the
midi notes created by your brother's kick drum pad that will appear
in Studio One's midi editor to correspond to the kick drum sound in
SD. In other words, the kick drum sound you want to use in SD
might be on A2. So you want to drag all your brother's kick drum
midi notes to that note.
c. repeat for each track

There's a more CPU/memory efficient way to do this but it's more complicated. I'm trying to spare you that.

Let me know if I can help in any other way.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by runamuck

#2 , 3 - Yes, have him route each midi drum pad to a separate midi track and then he can export them to you as separate midi files.

#4 - a. Import each midi file to a separate track in Studio One and then
assign Superior Drummer to each of them.
b. Choose a kit for each track that is your ideal drum sound for each
drum. Say that track 1 is the kick drum. Find the kick drum sound in
SD that is what you want to hear and on that midi track select all the
midi notes created by your brother's kick drum pad that will appear
in Studio One's midi editor to correspond to the kick drum sound in
SD. In other words, the kick drum sound you want to use in SD
might be on A2. So you want to drag all your brother's kick drum
midi notes to that note.
c. repeat for each track

There's a more CPU/memory efficient way to do this but it's more complicated. I'm trying to spare you that.

Drum kits (and VIs in general) can be really memory intensive. I'm not sure I'd recommend this, even if it seems easier. You can do the same thing with a single MIDI file for all the drums and one instance of SD3. You still edit the MIDI and move the notes, but I don't see any need to do it with a separate MIDI file and track for each drum.

Of course, now you're learning that in any situation, there are usually multiple ways to skin the cat. Use whichever one makes the most sense and works for you.

[b1j]

Reading your suggestions brought an idea to mind. Maybe my brother can just send me an un-preset MIDI track plus another track that records the drum sounds he hears when he plays. That would ensure I can assign MIDI “notes” to the right SD3 instrument.

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

Drum kits (and VIs in general) can be really memory intensive. I'm not sure I'd recommend this, even if it seems easier. You can do the same thing with a single MIDI file for all the drums and one instance of SD3. You still edit the MIDI and move the notes, but I don't see any need to do it with a separate MIDI file and track for each drum.

Of course, now you're learning that in any situation, there are usually multiple ways to skin the cat. Use whichever one makes the most sense and works for you.

Yeah, you're right.

I was thinking of my computer when I suggested this, not knowing what the OP has. On mine I could load up 20 instances of SD and hardly make a dent.

I just thought it would be a lot easier for someone not familiar with this stuff.

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by b1j

Reading your suggestions brought an idea to mind. Maybe my bother can just send me an un-preset MIDI track plus another track that records the drum sounds he hears when he plays. That would ensure I can assign MIDI “notes” to the right SD3 instrument.

Yeah, regarding a MIDI track, he could do that and that will work as long as he lets you know which MIDI notes go to which drum sound.

The other file he'd send would most likely be a stereo wav or mp3 file for you to hear what he hears.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by runamuck

Yeah, regarding a MIDI track, he could do that and that will work as long as he lets you know which MIDI notes go to which drum sound.

The other file he'd send would most likely be a stereo wav or mp3 file for you to hear what he hears.

I was thinking I could figure it out from the rhythm. Listen, read, assign.

[KevWind]

Lets back up a bit

As others have noted for Midi there are two methods when using a multi-output VI drums. (i.e which have separate outs for each drum -Kick, Snare, Tom, Cymbals etc.)

#1 Method is to have the individual drums record to one midi instrument track.. Where as Chipolte's 2nd image showed with the Kick (usually assigned to C1 on the keyboard at the bottom of the piano roll ) and then the other drums are assigned to consecutively higher notes (horizontal lanes) on the piano roll

#2 Method have each drum output to it's own individual instrument track ( the only reason to do this) ---is IF you know you want effects process each drum (Kick -Snare _Tomes- etc.) individually and differently from each other for things like EQ- Compression- Reverb- and/ or you want to assign each to some panning position you select (as oppose to using the default positioning that the VI drums usually assign)

#3 So your brother has S1 and you anticipate him using say S1's bundled drum machine (Impact) to lay down the various drums midi parts . and then export either the one combined midi file Or the multiple separate midi files for each drum part ? (either way will work).

#4 And you then want to import that or those midi files load them into Sup Drums and use its presets and sounds and then you mix them ?

Because you could have your brother simply mix the midi and convert the midi to a stereo audio file which you could then import into you song and it already done

Now while it's likely that the midi mapping will be the same or very similar between Impact and Sup Drums (like both will likely have kick mapped to C1) But some of the others drums could be assigned to different notes
Which is not a real big issue because you can select the entire lane of midid notes (say the High Hats and move them up and down in the Sup Drums Midi notes lanes to get them to trigger the Sup Drums High hats ---make sense ?

[b1j]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Lets back up a bit

As others have noted for Midi there are two methods when using a multi-output VI drums. (i.e which have separate outs for each drum -Kick, Snare, Tom, Cymbals etc.)

#1 Method is to have the individual drums record to one midi instrument track.. Where as Chipolte's 2nd image showed with the Kick (usually assigned to C1 on the keyboard at the bottom of the piano roll ) and then the other drums are assigned to consecutively higher notes (horizontal lanes) on the piano roll

#2 Method have each drum output to it's own individual instrument track ( the only reason to do this) ---is IF you know you want effects process each drum (Kick -Snare _Tomes- etc.) individually and differently from each other for things like EQ- Compression- Reverb- and/ or you want to assign each to some panning position you select (as oppose to using the default positioning that the VI drums usually assign)

#3 So your brother has S1 and you anticipate him using say S1's bundled drum machine (Impact) to lay down the various drums midi parts . and then export either the one combined midi file Or the multiple separate midi files for each drum part ? (either way will work).

#4 And you then want to import that or those midi files load them into Sup Drums and use its presets and sounds and then you mix them ?

Because you could have your brother simply mix the midi and convert the midi to a stereo audio file which you could then import into you song and it already done

Now while it's likely that the midi mapping will be the same or very similar between Impact and Sup Drums (like both will likely have kick mapped to C1) But some of the others drums could be assigned to different notes
Which is not a real big issue because you can select the entire lane of midid notes (say the High Hats and move them up and down in the Sup Drums Midi notes lanes to get them to trigger the Sup Drums High hats ---make sense ?

Kev, yes. That’s what I’m after.

I’m neutral, really, about whether I work with 1) a single piano-roll MIDI track or 2) individual tracks, one for each drum instrument — as long as I can map each instrument to its own SD3 “track.” That’s my baseline need. From that point, I’d be able to mix the drums with infinite flexibility — either in SD3 itself or in Studio One, which I’m more familiar with. One reason for this is precisely what you say: the option of using different effects on snare, kick, toms, cymbals.

A “nice to have” would be if I can select the brand/model preset for his kit after he records the track(s). That would streamline the process. But there won’t be many individual instruments in any case, so even if I have to assign parts one by one, it will probably be no more work than the mixing job to come.

For my brother, it would not be “simple” to mix the MIDI down to a stereo audio file, and even if he did, it would defeat the purpose of having the power of SD3 at my disposal.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by KevWind

#2 Method have each drum output to it's own individual instrument track ( the only reason to do this) ---is IF you know you want effects process each drum (Kick -Snare _Tomes- etc.) individually and differently from each other for things like EQ- Compression- Reverb- and/ or you want to assign each to some panning position you select (as oppose to using the default positioning that the VI drums usually assign)

[Edit: you posted as I was working in this... it's exactly what you want to do]

(tl;dr: Get a single MIDI file from the drummer, and put it on a track in the DAW with the drum VST on that track. Then use the capability of the drum plugin and the DAW to get each drum on separate tracks that you can control and use fx as you want.)

This can usually be done within the virtual drum plugin itself along with the DAW; no need to have separate MIDI tracks. Within the mixer of most drum plugins you can assign each drum to a particular output, then within the DAW receive those outputs on individual tracks so they can be processed and grouped as you want.

This is really the "next step", after you've figured out how to get the drummer to record the MIDI and then gotten it into the DAW and playing how you want. But it's extremely useful and powerful.

Here's a video on how to do this with SD3 and S1, but it's similar for other drum VSTs and DAWs.



Here's how that looks in one of my projects. The MIDI, with the drum plugin, on Track 1. The drum plugin sends each drum to different channels, which feed into various DAW tracks (kick, snare, hh, tom1, tom2...). Those DAW tracks can be grouped into a master Drum Bus, and sub-grouped if you want (I have the four toms grouped). So I have detailed control over the drum mix, can put fx on any of them individually, but I only need one MIDI track and one instance of the drum VST on that track.



It seems pretty complicated at first, and takes a bit of setup. But I'm a believer in learning to do things the "right" way (yes, I know there is more than one "right".... ) because it will make things easier in the long run.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

[Edit: you posted as I was working in this... it's exactly what you want to do]

(tl;dr: Get a single MIDI file from the drummer, and put it on a track in the DAW with the drum VST on that track. Then use the capability of the drum plugin and the DAW to get each drum on separate tracks that you can control and use fx as you want.)

This can usually be done within the virtual drum plugin itself along with the DAW; no need to have separate MIDI tracks. Within the mixer of most drum plugins you can assign each drum to a particular output, then within the DAW receive those outputs on individual tracks so they can be processed and grouped as you want.

This is really the "next step", after you've figured out how to get the drummer to record the MIDI and then gotten it into the DAW and playing how you want. But it's extremely useful and powerful.

Here's a video on how to do this with SD3 and S1, but it's similar for other drum VSTs and DAWs.



Here's how that looks in one of my projects. The MIDI, with the drum plugin, on Track 1. The drum plugin sends each drum to different channels, which feed into various DAW tracks (kick, snare, hh, tom1, tom2...). Those DAW tracks can be grouped into a master Drum Bus, and sub-grouped if you want (I have the four toms grouped). So I have detailed control over the drum mix, can put fx on any of them individually, but I only need one MIDI track and one instance of the drum VST on that track.



It seems pretty complicated at first, and takes a bit of setup. But I'm a believer in learning to do things the "right" way (yes, I know there is more than one "right".... ) because it will make things easier in the long run.

…and here it is. Many thanks! It helps to visualize the next step after I’ve properly assigned the MIDI “notes” to the right instruments.

He uses a stock groove chosen from SD3. I assume I just drag SD3 onto the MIDI track I get from my brother, and then see about assigning the appropriate preset to it. Then I can go through the mixing steps he clearly demonstrates..

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by b1j

He uses a stock groove chosen from SD3. I assume I just drag SD3 onto the MIDI track I get from my brother, and then see about assigning the appropriate preset to it. Then I can go through the mixing steps he clearly demonstrates..

Exactly. And if SD3 doesn't have a preset for your brother's e-drum kit, edit the MIDI to move the notes to the correct sounds. You can also edit the notes to clean up timing etc. if you want. See this video starting, at 13:46, for how to edit MIDI in S1, if you haven't looked into it already.

I find it a lot of fun to be able to remotely collaborate with other musicians, whether we're exchanging audio or MIDI files. I hope your project goes well.

[b1j]

I know the basic mechanics of editing MIDI, but the reason I want to work from a track performed by a person is that I’m not good enough to tweak the velocities and bring out the nuances. It’s been fine for scratch tracks, but I’m aiming for something more natural, in both dynamics and even timing.

He just told me he has a Roland and will give me the model when he gets home. I assume it’s the TD-07DMK, because he said last year it was the entry level kit.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by b1j

I know the basic mechanics of editing MIDI, but the reason I want to work from a track performed by a person is that I’m not good enough to tweak the velocities and bring out the nuances. It’s been fine for scratch tracks, but I’m aiming for something more natural, in both dynamics and even timing.

He just told me he has a Roland and will give me the model when he gets home. I assume it’s the TD-07DMK, because he said last year it was the entry level kit.

I understand I have been mostly programing drums since about 2011 But honestly not very much --i.e. that is to say I have only used Midi drums in maybe 6 or 8 of my 90 some some productions .. And still struggle to get realistic sounds (mostly in the timing of fills ) the velocity changes are not all that difficult by moving the velocity stacks up and down particularly on adjacent drum hits Ill post some videos tomorrow