The post-Sam Ash era

[Stonehauler]

first off, this has been the case for many many years. This is not a new phenomena at all.

Think about department stores. How many older department stores have been run out of business by the likes of Macys, Sears (before they were run out of business, they were the original Amazon with their catalog), etc. There used to be a very nice chain of local stores (Marshall Fields) that was in Chicago. They got bought out by Macys. Lord and Taylor was one of the oldest department stores, they are now online only. There used to be a medium sized stores in my home town selling sporting goods, the local high school "spirit clothing" (tees, letter jackets, etc.) along with supplying most of the bats, gloves, and balls used for sports in the area. They went out of business when Walmart came into town (along with the men's business clothes store).

The fact is, guitar stores are facing some of the same issues that these other stores have over the past century or more. It's the nature of business. Sometimes it's not their fault because of issues they face (Covid for instance) external to their business, other times it's because larger companies with bigger economies of scale come in, and then there are the times that the original owners/operators pass on or get content in their success and stop innovating.

Going to go back to Sears here. Sears was the largest retailer at one point in time. Yes, they lost that title to Walmart, but they had a huge advantage. The Sears Catalog. This is something that had existed for more than a century before Amazon. Imagine what would have happened if Sears had simply put the catalog online with a good user interface, and then allowed people to order and get direct deliveries from them? Amazon would not exist, or would be a much smaller player. Sears was perfectly positioned to become Amazon...but they did not take that step in innovation. They did not take the time to re-invest in their stores and their products. They were content to just take money out of their stores in the form of profits. Now, they are almost dead with just 11 remaining stores.

If you are not constantly reinventing yourself, if you are not constantly putting profits back into your stores, and if you are not thinking about how to improve and innovate for your company, it's only a matter of time before it dies.

[abn556]

It wasn’t just lack of innovation that killed Sears. Like Montgomery Ward, they never updated their products. They were carrying old and cheap looking clothes at the mall stores that didn’t compete with the other stores. Then their auto repair operation was hit with a giant overcharging law suit that drove a lot of older customers away. Then they tried spinning off their hardware and appliance sales into separate business units, but were behind Home Depot and Lowes. All in, it looks like they needed a major management change to update the stores and bring in new technology. Unfortunately they stuck with old ideas. Walking into a Sears the last few years before they closed was like watching old reruns of Leave it to Beaver. Something from a bygone era.

[Bob Womack]

With Sears, I think the 800lb gorilla in the room was unionization. I watched it happen. The effect on the sales force was, "I don't have to help you - they couldn't fire me if they wanted." They very quickly became unpleasant to shop at. There were exceptions, but in a very short time the sales force changed to clock watchers. But, yes, if Sears had turned the corner by putting their catalog online early they could have saved themselves.

With music stores it is just sort of a "paved paradise and put up a parking lot" situation. We had some BIG independent stores in the area, and some little ones, until Mars dropped out of the clouds in 1996. They drew all the best salesmen from the other stores and then killed them off with the economies of scale, gobs of stock, and in-store events. Gloriosky!

Then Guitar Center used Mars' marketing research to located their stores. GC in my area dropped in just a few hundred yards from Mars with an even bigger grand opening. They opened with that "the guitar case will cost you extra" pricing scam but quickly got past that. At this point most of the local stores went out of business.

Then Mars croaked, leaving a bunch of sales staff unemployed. So now GC has gone down a bit, the carpets are worn and the place is sort of tatty. We've got the semi-mega store but folks around here say, "They like their guitars," meaning they like them so well they price them high and don't want you to touch them as if they don't want to sell them. However, things may change. I went in and bought a couple of pairs of strings the other day and the salesman said, sincerely, "Thank you for buying locally."

But this brings us to how we get what we want. As Chris Mckee of Alamo put it, we are left with the problem that the local stores may not carry the tools we need. Of my last three purchases, two have gone to Sweetwater becaus no-one carries the items. Though I want to buy from bick-and-mortar, I end up going where the supply is.

Bob

[RP]

I wonder if guitar manufacturers will increasingly go the route that Emerald Guitars has laid out in bypassing dealers and doing exclusive factory direct sales to consumers. It seems that both Martin and Taylor are testing the waters...

[NC Strummer]

Originally Posted by TBman

Hopefully Guitar Center isn't going anywhere, but I have my doubts sometimes. I think the last guitar I bought in a store (from GC) was a J-45 that was purchased in 2016.

Recently I was in the GC near me and saw the Cordoba Stage. I played one a while and went back a week or so later to play it again. They didn't have the Traditional Stage so I bought one online from Sweetwater as I have a good buying history with them and I have confidence in them. I have read too many horror stories about buying from GC online (damaged guitars, not as advertised, etc).

Locking up the "good" guitars, which is what I would buy if I was shopping for one, has really stopped my buying guitars from GC. I don't want to have to ask a salesman every 5 minutes to get me that one or this one many times over the course of an hour or so while I make a purchase decision. Plus if I decide not to purchase that day I would feel as though I put the salesman to work for nothing.

I used to enjoy spending time at the Sam Ash near me. It was a comfortable store to shop in. They had tons of sheet music and unlocked guitars.

Don't know if this is happening in other stores, but at my local GC, not only have they gotten a HUGE influx of acoustic guitars (enough that they had to take up space from the drum section and the back of the store where they give lessons just to put them all out on display), but they have also left almost all of the guitars unlocked. Even the higher end models. Maybe 10-15 of the most expensive Taylors were locked up for some reason, but several of the higher models were still available to play unlocked. NONE of the Martins or Gibsons were locked. D-28s, HD28s, a Super D, OM-28, Hummingbirds, Songwriters, J-45s.....everything.

[Osage]

Saying that if Sears had only put their catalog online they would have done great sounds good but history just doesn't back it up. Sear's mail order business began declining in the late 1970's and was done by the early 90's The last Christmas Wish Book they printed was in 1992 and the last catalog they printed was in early 1993. Shorty after this they fired all 50,000 mail order workers. There was essentially no web for them to go to at that point. Technically the World Wide Web has existed for public use since 1991 but almost no one was using it then and it didn't resemble the modern web in the slightest. The first usable public web browser was Mosaic, which came out in late 1993, after Sears had already discontinued their mail order business. Netscape didn't come out until 1995, which is when most people first got online and Internet Explorer didn't come out until 1996, when the rest of us got online.

[TheGITM]

Originally Posted by NC Strummer

Don't know if this is happening in other stores, but at my local GC, not only have they gotten a HUGE influx of acoustic guitars (enough that they had to take up space from the drum section and the back of the store where they give lessons just to put them all out on display), but they have also left almost all of the guitars unlocked. Even the higher end models. Maybe 10-15 of the most expensive Taylors were locked up for some reason, but several of the higher models were still available to play unlocked. NONE of the Martins or Gibsons were locked. D-28s, HD28s, a Super D, OM-28, Hummingbirds, Songwriters, J-45s.....everything.

Inventory and inventory security varies by location. The GC closest to me doesn't lock up inventory at all. Anyone can pull a $4k+ martin off the wall and play it. They do pay attention to the acoustic room, but they don't hover over you while you're in there. It's actually a really nice store with a decent selection of products across makers and price points.

[GoPappy]

Originally Posted by NC Strummer

Don't know if this is happening in other stores, but at my local GC, not only have they gotten a HUGE influx of acoustic guitars (enough that they had to take up space from the drum section and the back of the store where they give lessons just to put them all out on display), but they have also left almost all of the guitars unlocked. Even the higher end models. Maybe 10-15 of the most expensive Taylors were locked up for some reason, but several of the higher models were still available to play unlocked. NONE of the Martins or Gibsons were locked. D-28s, HD28s, a Super D, OM-28, Hummingbirds, Songwriters, J-45s.....everything.

I was at a large GC here in Texas about a week ago, and all the acoustics were locked up except the lower end stuff such as Fender, Yamaha, Washburn, Alvarez, etc. I went in the room where the Martins, Taylors and Gibsons are and they were all locked up.

[RiffRalf]

Originally Posted by TheGITM

Inventory and inventory security varies by location. The GC closest to me doesn't lock up inventory at all. Anyone can pull a $4k+ martin off the wall .....

In my neighbourhood GC the nice guitars are all the way up the wall so you need the staff to get the ladder ....

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by RP

I wonder if guitar manufacturers will increasingly go the route that Emerald Guitars has laid out in bypassing dealers and doing exclusive factory direct sales to consumers. It seems that both Martin and Taylor are testing the waters...

Anybody here remember Carvin?

[TheGITM]

I think I will stop by my GC after I wrap up some afternoon meetings and I'll do a brief video walk-thru of the acoustic room. I think some might find it interesting (or not...)

[OnTheLedge]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

With Sears, I think the 800lb gorilla in the room was unionization. I watched it happen. The effect on the sales force was, "I don't have to help you - they couldn't fire me if they wanted." They very quickly became unpleasant to shop at.
Bob

According to the last page of this U.S. Department of Labor document, Sam Ash employees are not unionized ....but thanks for perpetuating the stereotype with your imaginary gorilla.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://dol.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2024/04/sam-ash-new-york-megastores-llc-2023-0336-through-2023-0338-4-24-2024.pdf

[Osage]

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

Anybody here remember Carvin?

Carvin has been going strong under their original name, making electric guitars since 1946! It's currently a third generation family owned shop! There was a family dispute about 10 years ago and the guitar branch was split off from the electronics branch and they changed back to their original company name Kiesel. The electronics branch folded pretty quickly and Kiesel is still making higher end but more affordable guitars aimed at the metal and shredder market. And as always, they're mail order only!

[Br1ck]

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

Anybody here remember Carvin?

Carvin split up quite a few years ago. Their electronic products, PA gear and such, didn't last too long. I have a wonderful Carvin AG300 acoustic amp people are always trying to buy. The guitar and bass part of the business was branded Kieisel and are doing very well custom building high quality instruments. Carvin guitars were always very well made and a great value. Kiesel, starting at around $1500, have just about anything you could want in a custom instrument.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by Osage

Carvin has been going strong under their original name, making electric guitars since 1946! It's currently a third generation family owned shop! There was a family dispute about 10 years ago and the guitar branch was split off from the electronics branch and they changed back to their original company name Kiesel. The electronics branch folded pretty quickly and Kiesel is still making higher end but more affordable guitars aimed at the metal and shredder market. And as always, they're mail order only!

Originally Posted by Br1ck

Carvin split up quite a few years ago. Their electronic products, PA gear and such, didn't last too long. I have a wonderful Carvin AG300 acoustic amp people are always trying to buy. The guitar and bass part of the business was branded Kieisel and are doing very well custom building high quality instruments. Carvin guitars were always very well made and a great value. Kiesel, starting at around $1500, have just about anything you could want in a custom instrument.

Yep, Carvin (now, Kieisel) has been doing direct sales the better part of a century before Emerald was even a company (to the best of my knowledge).