The loudness wars might soon be over...

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by wthurman

Hi Bob,
You speak to dynamic range somewhat... and something I've noticed about lack of dynamic range is that it's also fatiguing. Otherwise exciting music literally puts me to sleep. It's like eating everything covered with do much hot sauce that your taste buds basically switch off. Anything used to excess can be this way, too. Yes' Union album was unlistenable to me because it sounded like they had a BBE turned up to 11.

As for differing levels on differing CD's that others mention, I'm sorry... I find it comparatively simple to adjust the volume myself. Sure, it can get old, but to me, it doesn't get as old as music constantly going YAAAAAAAAAA in the car or at home. I've almost completely stopped listening to music on radio and TV as a result.

Not that compression is a bad thing in and of itself. It's use has simply taken us to a point where the the excitement of dynamics hasn't just been removed - the concept is completely lost, apparently, on a whole generation of listeners.

IMO.

The software will remove the very thing producers have been squashing dynamic range for: To make their product louder or the loudest. As a result, the loudness of over-compressed program will be adjusted downward until it is at parity with other signals. You'll end up with low, flat-sounding over-compressed music if you over-compress rather than boosting the level compared to the music around it. Thus there is a disincentive to producers to compress as much.

Bob

[Ty Ford]

Bob,

I read the Dialnorm white paper online somewhere and thought that, maybe for the five minutes that followed, I understood how they did it. Then someone asked me what time it was and it flew out the window.

Dave Moulton took a real good shot at it a few years back. http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/11834

Holy Crap. Dialnorm has even made Wikipedia status...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialnorm

I noticed the big difference here as more local TV stations fired up their extra D channels. On those channels, the levels between different elements have been nuts the last year, but they seem to be settling down some, probably because of the threat of FCC action.

Hope you're somewhere to enjoy the glimpse of Spring this weekend.

Regards,

Ty

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

The software will remove the very thing producers have been squashing dynamic range for: To make their product louder or the loudest. As a result, the loudness of over-compressed program will be adjusted downward until it is at parity with other signals. You'll end up with low, flat-sounding over-compressed music if you over-compress rather than boosting the level compared to the music around it. Thus there is a disincentive to producers to compress as much.

Bob

Yes, but...... This is for TV, right? IN TV, there is no human being at the audio controls in real time to adjust audio form segment to segment. As a result you get these huge swings in loudness (smaller peak to rms ratios) that are very jarring when the stations go into spot breaks. That's an issue with the audio tracks of commercials. What's being discussed here, (no?) is audio processing on CDs. That's really a radio thing.

The thing is, with radio, we still normally have someone at a console adjusting levels before the audio goes to the transmitter, although a LOT of am and FM radio is automation, no real person on the air. But that's another story.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Bob,

I read the Dialnorm white paper online somewhere and thought that, maybe for the five minutes that followed, I understood how they did it. Then someone asked me what time it was and it flew out the window.

Dave Moulton took a real good shot at it a few years back. http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/11834

Holy Crap. Dialnorm has even made Wikipedia status...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialnorm

I experimented with Dialnorm when producing demo discs of concerts I did the surround mixes on. Given my tight production schedules, I've taken to turning over the mixes to a disc author. With render times, it just doesn't pay to learn on exports of two-hour programs.

I noticed the big difference here as more local TV stations fired up their extra D channels. On those channels, the levels between different elements have been nuts the last year, but they seem to be settling down some, probably because of the threat of FCC action.

Hope you're somewhere to enjoy the glimpse of Spring this weekend.


Regards,

Ty

Thanks, yes, 56' today and 60' tomorrow with sunny skies! Great for taking my love out for dinner Sunday night.

It should melt the snow nicely! I hope you enjoy it as well! The standard being discussed in the original article is for playback devices. They are actually discussing a system that analyzes the content and adjusts to the actual data within. There are already a couple systems out there and more are on the way. On the TV round, what made congress beat out the industry committees was that ONE of the big-three broadcasting networks represented on the committee (who will go unnamed) was a hold-out and had veto power left over from the days when they dominated American program delivery. Hopefully that won't affect the current audio committees.

Of course, the congressional action that is currently being considered comes at the issue from the wrong angle entirely: prevention of hearing damage by ear buds and headphones. The current thought process seeks to prevent that by limiting overall level and excursions. Of course, you can't know the efficiency of the headphones that are plugged in unless you make the headphones a digitally identifiable entity that can declare its own efficiency. Whoooo boy, more complication. As I recall, one of the big MP3 player manufacturers, I forget which, has already installed level limiting software that you must defeat from a menu if you want real control of the levels.

Take care and happy weekend!

Bob

[alohachris]

Aloha Bob & Ty,

This thread is really interesting. We can always count on you old pros to provide VERY informative links to back up your positions (I wish more would do that at AGF).

I've learned a lot here about aspects of the loudness issue I hadn't considered. It has many tentacles, doesn't it? From who excessive loudness affects & how, to how it affects music, why it's so high leveled today, to how to compete with your message or recordings in terms of loudness, to how it is used by American culture today, etc. Mahalo!

Does anyone on a practical level believe that loudness will be regulated or abated in this culture, in our lifetime? And not just for engineers' health concerns or in Main Stream studio recording. I just don't see that happening, as much as it should.

Remember when "Brooks" in the movie 'Shawshank Redemption' was released from prison after 57 years?!? And he wrote back to his friends inside that "the world has gone & gotten itself in big hurry, much noisier, & cars...."

That's a little like the way I feel living in today's loud, techno-addled America. Heck, like all you guys, I used to follow Hendrix around for weeks when I was a kid & never used earplugs. And I know that my 61 y.o. nervous system has loudness limitations now that it didn't before. But this technologically-driven, excessively noisy world today is driving me further into more seclusion up here in the rainforest everyday. We are SOOOO Loud now in general, not only on compressed Main Stream CD's either. At the end of my day now, I rarely put on music as before, I just listen to the birds singin' in the Koa & Camphor trees outside, as I am right now.

Thanks again Bob & Ty & others who participated.

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

PS: Seeing all the interest in extreme weather makes me glad that I don't have to shovel snow anymore, or think that 50 degree temperatures are "Spring warm." Hope ya'll get a reprieve from more of that white stuff soon. Ha! This might help ya Ty. I mean, Ocean City aint like these:

http://www.hawaiigaga.com/hawaii-best-beaches.aspx

alohachris

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Does anyone on a practical level believe that loudness will be regulated or abated in this culture, in our lifetime?

Prolly not Chris. Back when I bought my first Honda Accord it was so quiet that I enjoyed riding around with no radio on, just to hear the quiet.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[f1sh]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Interesting editorial in MIX magazine, HERE. Tell me what you think...

Bob

That was a great read. Lets hope the death of the compressor is coming. I have never been a fan of crunched music. Let the wave do its thing.

[Bob Womack]

By the way, HERE is a link to the new loudness legislation for TV, the CALM Act, passed December 15th. The FCC has a year to settle on new technology. It passed the Senate in September.

Bob