Taylor Prices Haven't Really Gone Up

[Herb Hunter]

In 1996 I bought a brand new 814c at Sam Ash for $xxxx. That is $xxxx in 2004 dollars. Having mentioned this in a couple of the current threads, I called Sam Ash just now and got a quote of $xxxx for an 814c. That means that in 8 years the price of an 814c actually hasn't changed.

It is dishonorable to draw conclusions from unjustifiable claims.

The following quote is from the thread: Price of Taylors going up too high and Fast

Originally Posted by Jarvis

I've watch the prices for Taylor guitars since 1995 ...
the price of a 97-814ce....was like half of a new 814ce piece today..

Are taylor prices high or going up so fast...yah!!! I know ..new developments..nt neck, uv finish, ES pickup...

what do you guys think...

for me now I prefer to buy used ...

[Fngrstyl]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

In 1996 I bought a brand new 814c at Sam Ash for $xxxx. That is $xxxx in 2004 dollars. Having mentioned this in a couple of the current threads, I called Sam Ash just now and got a quote of $xxxx for an 814c. That means that in 8 years the price of an 814c actually hasn't changed.

It is dishonorable to draw conclusions from unjustifiable claims.

The following quote is from the thread: Price of Taylors going up too high and Fast

Rule # 2
2) NO GUITAR PRICING DISCUSSIONS: We respectfully ask that you keep guitar pricing discussions offline. We think pricing discussions in this forum can hurt dealers and ultimately hurt customers.


http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/faq.php?

[cotten]

Chad's right about our guitar price discussion rule, and I've x'ed out the figures posted. However, Herb makes a viable point. Inflation alone causes a certain amount of price increase.

I know it's hard to talk about guitar prices without mentioning guitar prices. Still, if we can leave out specific dollar amounts, I think we can pull it off. Thanks for trying!

cotten

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

...In 1996 I bought a brand new 814c at Sam Ash for $X,XXX. That is $X,XXX in 2004 dollars. Having mentioned this in a couple of the current threads, I called Sam Ash just now and got a quote of $X,XXX for an 814c. That means that in 8 years the price of an 814c actually hasn't changed.
...It is dishonorable to draw conclusions from unjustifiable claims.

Hi Herb...
By now, you are probably abreast of the price discussion rules in the forum, but to play off your thought - to conclude that prices have not really risen because the $$ of today are somehow equal to a different amount of dollars 8 years ago is only true for somebody who has had their income rising at the same rate as inflation.

I doubt you meant to come off so strong, but perhaps it is insensitive to not consider that all people's incomes are not rising at the same rate as inflation. To anyone who has dreamed of a particular guitar, set their hopes on it and find prices rising when their income does not - prices are going up.

I don't make any more income now than 7 years ago, so from my perspective, and street prices of good instruments have definitely risen - and it's not just guitars.

I am not complaining, as I am advanced as far as I can go with my job and not expecting a wage increase. We know how to live within our means.

Also, there are people in this forum (and in society at large) who are retired and on fixed or retirement incomes - and they definitely feel price increases. And they see them as increases. It doesn't make them more happy customers to tell them that prices really are not higher comparatively.

The street price of new guitars has risen a lot over the past few years, and watching e-bay, I've noticed that the resale value of recently built (used) Taylors, Martins, and Gibsons have dropped quite a bit too.

It used to be that you could buy a new high end guitar and in two years get at least what you payed for it when you resold it. I think it will probably take more than a couple years now.

I don't think the discussion of rising prices has slowed Taylor's sales, nor has it dampened the enthusiasm loyal players have for them. It is players who ultimately decide the future of a company. We vote with our purchases. Taylor's sales look pretty healthy right now.

The other thread did offer some opportunity for those who have strong feelings about the inequity of wealth distribution in America to spout a bit, and all in all, it seemed a pretty healthy and sporting discussion.

[samchar]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

That means that in 8 years the price of an 814c actually hasn't changed.

Just because an item hasn't gone up in nominal price doesn't mean it's not considered more expensive. Purchases are all relative. What has also happened in the last 8 years (I believe) is that you can get generally more guitar for the money. Therefore, if the market has come down, say, 20-25% (not even accounting for inflation) for a rosewood & spruce acoustic guitar (and I don't know if that's what the number is) and if Taylor has stayed constant, their guitar is now more expensive. It's that simple.

People aren't generally choosing between a guitar and food. (At least I hope not.) The are choosing between a guitar and another guitar.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Herb...
By now, you are probably abreast of the price discussion rules in the forum, but to play off your thought - to conclude that prices have not really risen because the $$ of today are somehow equal to a different amount of dollars 8 years ago is only true for somebody who has had their income rising at the same rate as inflation

I doubt you meant to come off so strong, but perhaps it is insensitive to not consider that all people's incomes are not rising at the same rate as inflation...

it used to be that you could buy a new high end guitar and in two years get at least what you payed for it when you resold it. I think it will probably take more than a couple years now.

The matter isn't quite so simple. Those whose income hasn't kept up with inflation will find many goods and service going up, not just Taylor guitars. Furthermore, that a percentage of people are on fixed incomes has no bearing on Taylor's costs which aren't fixed. They have increased substantially. Some of their costs will have risen at a rate higher than the inflation rate and some at a lower rate. In the aggregate their costs have gone up yet in real terms, their prices haven't (The Japanese have been very interested in learning how Taylor has been able to keep their prices down.) I was responding to claims of outrageous price increases and I have proven that they are without merit. Simply comparing the list prices of 1997 with those of 2005 shows that prices haven't doubled as on person claimed.

I don't think putting things in perspective is insensitive. Some of us have lost half of our income or more in the last few years but that doesn't change the average purchasing power.

I'm sorry for disregarding the rule about prices. I did so out of ignorance as, to my discredit, I agreed to the terms without more than a cursory reading. As per those terms, I'm glad that the current price I mentioned was censored by I don't see how stating an 8 year old price would be an issue. Again, I apologize for violating the rules.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by samchar

... Therefore, if the market has come down, say, 20-25% (not even accounting for inflation) for a rosewood & spruce acoustic guitar (and I don't know if that's what the number is) and if Taylor has stayed constant, their guitar is now more expensive...

Could you please give me an example of a spruce/rosewood from a reputable manufacturer whose price has dropped significantly in the last 8 years without having resorted to cheaper materials (cedar neck instead of mahogany for example) and without having moved the factory to China?

[Bevelman]

So it's not a question of prices going up as it is an issue with buying power going down?

[charlemagne52]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

It is dishonorable to draw conclusions from unjustifiable claims.

The following quote is from the thread: Price of Taylors going up too high and Fast

Dishonorable?? I think that's a stretch. I'll settle for disingenuous. We swamp yankees aren't supposed to use those 50 cent words but sparingly tho'.

That said I agree with your point. It hasn't gotten any cheaper to manufacture in the US despite CRC and other productivity improvements. And inflation has added a good blast. Meanwhile the sophistication of overseas manufacturers (and marketing saavy) has grown a lot. So the market place is flooded with very nice instruments. I have succumbed to a Korean bass and a Chinese upright bass in the last two years . The quality is better than I would have believed. I'm basically a Gibson/Martin/Fender luddite with the occasional Taylor or Music Man deviation. But you take one of those nice Korean basses off the wall and what the heck, why not save a $1000 bucks (that you can spend on a nice Chinese big screen TV) It ain't easy being a US manufacturer, paying top dollar for medical benefits, minimum wage and semi-motivated employees who are cruising the net on guitar forums when they should be working.

OK, end of soliloquy (dang, there goes another $0.50 ) I'd stay and chat but I'm runnin' outta smileys.

Welcome to the AGF Herb, stay warm, thanks for a good counterpoint.

[dreamsinger]

Originally Posted by Bevelman

So it's not a question of prices going up as it is an issue with buying power going down?

Exactly, sort of. If you look at a chart of purchasing power over the increases in the GDP since 1970 you'll see a relatively flat line over an ever increasing curve. Those CEO's making 400+x the salary of their average workers don't take goodwill and Monopoly money for compensation, you know.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

...I don't think putting things in perspective is insensitive.

Hi Herb...
...and I don't think questioning or stating that the price of Taylor guitars has risen too quickly is dishonorably drawing conclusions from from unjustifiable claims...whether I agree or not.

Actually Herb, you are not the first (nor will you be the last) to trip over the price rule, nor is it a major offense the first time. I saw that the price police visited your posts and you are now clean. It is an art to attempt to hold discussions on topics like yours without using actual prices, but we get pretty good at it.

I responded as I did because you only framed Taylor's price increases from a limited perspective. Playing with dollar signs and financial formulae are not a way to evaluate cost increases. If it was merely price increases which matched material or labor costs the increases would be easily explainable.

Being good friends with a luthier personally, I have a pretty good idea (because I asked and we have discussed it on several occasions) what are the luthier's costs in a guitar within a few bucks. Taylor's prices have risen by far more than the cost of materials, labor and inflation...especially considering the fact they buy in bulk and manufacture in masse (both cost cutters).

By the way, I don't take any issues with companies like Taylor making a profit, nor with people becoming wealthy as long as they do so legally. One of my folk's best friends invented something which became a success when I was in high school and became a millionaire. He stayed the same generous and lovable guy (and drove a better car).

Speaking of Bob Taylor's instruments and company!
What a way to make a living...building pretty looking and sounding instruments that players love, & people enjoy hearing. Becoming an innovator who others seek to emulate, while raising the bar on fit and finish of manufactured instruments. And on top of it all, being able to employ dozens of employees and to succeed in making good profits even when located in California!

On a personal note...
In the past two years I was privileged to commission a handbuilt guitar despite a frozen income because we live in a great nation, and my wife and I learned to live within our means and to save money, and we have been blessed. It cost more than a Taylor or Martin, and plays and sounds better than a Taylor or Martin too.

[samchar]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Could you please give me an example of a spruce/rosewood from a reputable manufacturer whose price has dropped significantly in the last 8 years without having resorted to cheaper materials (cedar neck instead of mahogany for example) and without having moved the factory to China?

Well, Martin has released, through musiciansfriend, a solid-wood spruce topped rosewood guitar with a mohogany neck. American made. Now, it has a satin finish.....but it can be bought at a price point where one used to buy lesser guitars.

And, what does China have to do with it? I don't discriminate against the Chinese. A human being is a human being and a guitar is a guitar. If Guild can make a fully-finished solid rosewood and spruce GAD-50 for around the price of that limited Martin, then more power to them. You are talking about manufacturing facilities.....I'm talking about the prices of guitars in the market. Two different animals.

These are just two examples.....of many. And, even Taylor's 414 limited edition rosewood model showed that manufacturers were bringing there rosewood/spruce guitars down to lower price points to meet market demand. It may not have all the bling-bling of the HD or 814, but hey, the highest client satisfaction in the department store industry right now is Kohls. This is increasingly a consumer economy that wants a discounted, high-utility product.

[semolinapilcher]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

It used to be that you could buy a new high end guitar and in two years get at least what you payed for it when you resold it. I think it will probably take more than a couple years now.

The situation I'm quoting above is not sustainable, and can only happen when prices are rapidly increasing and/or supply is tightening.

Also, particularly with Taylors, to get a level playing field one should probably look at the guitars only, that is, without electronics. The price for a 415 (no c, no e) is $120 higher than four years ago. That is a 7.1% increase - and the fretboard is no longer bound - but the compound annual growth rate over four years is 1.7%.

If you want to complain about prices, look into the rate of increase for college textbooks. Now THERE'S a racket.

[squintbro]

I saw a Taylor for $xxxx once but did not buy it. I figure that for $xxxx and adding $xxx, that I could get two guitars. That is if the 2nd guitar would sell for $xxxx, but not if I had to pay $xxx more then the $xxxx Taylor. Figuring in inflation at xx% over x years, I would still have $xxx left over to buy a nice parlor guitar and have $xx change.



(Please read above post in the satirical manner in which it was wrote)

[dudley doright]

Market price may not have gone up but the manufacturing cost have actually lowered in order for Taylor to get the same margin.
The guitar in 1994 may have cost $XXXX and to make that guitar it cost Taylor $XXX. Now the same guitar cost $XXXX but it cost them only $XX. Taylor has to cut cost on either materials or labor. You do the math. All I am saying is that my 1995 412 may have a better workmanship and materials than what comparable 412 today. Is my 412 better than what you will get today? I like to think so, but I know it isn't. However my 412 was worth every penny I paid for it.