Dual Source, One Jack or Two?

[open-road-matt]

Hi Folks!
Looking for some AGF wisdom and opinions on this.

I think I've settled on a dual source for what will be my main gigging guitar. It's a Rainsong JM1000, the jumbo. It comes stock with a Fishman under saddle pickup with a bar door preamp, the Prefix Plus-T. The plugged in sound is decent but I'd like to add a second source. I'm going to go with the Fishman Rare Earth Blend.

I'm pretty sure that I am going to install a second jack vs. wiring the pickups to a single stereo jack. I like the fact that 1) it's very easy to use either pickup independently should I choose to do that and 2) should I decide to go another route, I can completely remove the Rare Earth and sell it since the second jack would allow me to install the pickup without any modification (to the pickup.)

The downsides of the second jack are 1) the extra hole in the guitar! and 2) the dual 1/4" cable but I've gotten some good advice on the cable in another thread.

I was eyeing up some different outboard blenders but I am almost always doing my own sound so I'll just use two channels on my QSC TouchMix 8 for the guitar and blend the two sources that way.

It's been a while since I've had multiple sources in one guitar. I've done the stereo jack but that was with a Pendulum SPS-1 and a pickup/pickup module.

Am I missing anything in my thought process here?

Thanks!
Matt

[TOCS]

I have two JJB transducers and a Sunrise wired to one stereo endpin. I just split the signal in a DIY preamp/splitter box and it works great.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

Hi Folks!
Looking for some AGF wisdom and opinions on this.

I think I've settled on a dual source for what will be my main gigging guitar. It's a Rainsong JM1000, the jumbo. It comes stock with a Fishman under saddle pickup with a bar door preamp, the Prefix Plus-T. The plugged in sound is decent but I'd like to add a second source. I'm going to go with the Fishman Rare Earth Blend.

I'm pretty sure that I am going to install a second jack vs. wiring the pickups to a single stereo jack. I like the fact that 1) it's very easy to use either pickup independently should I choose to do that and 2) should I decide to go another route, I can completely remove the Rare Earth and sell it since the second jack would allow me to install the pickup without any modification (to the pickup.)

The downsides of the second jack are 1) the extra hole in the guitar! and 2) the dual 1/4" cable but I've gotten some good advice on the cable in another thread.

I was eyeing up some different outboard blenders but I am almost always doing my own sound so I'll just use two channels on my QSC TouchMix 8 for the guitar and blend the two sources that way.

It's been a while since I've had multiple sources in one guitar. I've done the stereo jack but that was with a Pendulum SPS-1 and a pickup/pickup module.

Am I missing anything in my thought process here?

Thanks!
Matt

Probably not what you wanted to hear but how about running the output of the RainSong JM1000 through a Fishman Aura Spectrum DI? No alteration of the guitar required and it should enhance the amplified tone of the JM3000.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Probably not what you wanted to hear but how about running the output of the RainSong JM3000 through a Fishman Aura Spectrum DI? No alteration of the guitar required and it should enhance the amplified tone of the JM3000.

SpruceTop,
I have been pondering trying an Aura (again!) with this guitar and avoiding the dual source.

I've had every different Aura product that's ever been made. I love the concept but I can never stick with it. One of the "problems" with the Aura for me is that there are too many options. When I find an image that kind of works, I'll play with it for a while and then try another, go back and forth, and just endlessly screw around with it.

I checked out the Aura software and the only Rainsong image they currently have is the DR1000. That's the dreadnought. I could try that or keep messing with some of the different Jumbo images.

I do know that with two sources I get a more multi-dimensional sound that I don't get with the Aura.

I guess I could order an Aura from somewhere with a good return policy and have a shoot out, Aura vs. the two sources.

Matt

[ericcsong]

Matt, since the fishman goes mono out, why not just swap a stereo plug in the end jack and wire the fishman to the tip and a second source to the ring. Then run a stereo cable out to a y cable to your mixer?

Or you know you really want to get back to the pendulum

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by ericcsong

Matt, since the fishman goes mono out, why not just swap a stereo plug in the end jack and wire the fishman to the tip and a second source to the ring. Then run a stereo cable out to a y cable to your mixer?

Or you know you really want to get back to the pendulum

The Fishman that comes in the Rainsong is on a stereo jack and one of the tech support guys at Fishman was kind enough to send me instructions on wiring the Rare Earth to the Prefix Plus-T so that is definitely an option.

And that's sort of the debate I'm having. I don't mind having a second hole in my guitar (should I decide to abandon all of this, which I don't think I would do.) It takes forever for anyone to buy any of my old guitars anyway. Why not put more holes in them!

Having them wired to the same jack could simplify things allowing me to use the stereo/y cable. But I'm a bit isolated up here with regard to music stores, techs, etc. and there aren't many (in fact, maybe only one guy that I know of) that I would want messing around with the wiring. It seems like a recipe for disaster. I could see getting to a show and having no working electronics!

That's why I keep coming back to the two jacks. Once I get the hole drilled, I can do the rest myself. But that's why I'm checking in, to see if there are good reasons not to do the two jacks.

As for the Pendulum, I've been eyeing up a Grace Designs Felix should I "need" a blender!

Matt

[Woodstock School Of Music]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

Having them wired to the same jack could simplify things allowing me to use the stereo/y cable. But I'm a bit isolated up here with regard to music stores, techs, etc. and there aren't many (in fact, maybe only one guy that I know of) that I would want messing around with the wiring. It seems like a recipe for disaster. I could see getting to a show and having no working electronics!

Matt

I know what you say about the tech I'm very careful who I work with too but wiring the second pickup is not that big of a deal and your not really decreasing your odds of failure because you'll have two jacks that can fail instead of one. If the stereo wiring, connector, or jack goes bad odds are one of the pickups will still work just like if one of the two jacks failed. I hope that made sense

Just throwing some thoughts out there

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by The dman

I know what you say about the tech I'm very careful who I work with too but wiring the second pickup is not that big of a deal and your not really decreasing your odds of failure because you'll have two jacks that can fail instead of one. If the stereo wiring, connector, or jack goes bad odds are one of the pickups will still work just like if one of the two jacks failed. I hope that made sense

Just throwing some thoughts out there

Seems like the general consensus is one jack. Hmmm. It would look nicer and the Y cable would be easier. Maybe I'll take the guitar and pickup to the one guy who could do this and see what he thinks.

Matt

[myersbw]

I would agree with the rest, too. I'm also one that would look at the guitar if pondering buying it and think,"Oh, there's two holes in the guitar or the potential for two jacks to loosen up, oxidize, you name it."

Yet, more than that, I only want the weight of one cable hanging off of the guitar.

[Cochese]

Drilling a hole in graphite is a little different than drilling into wood. That should be considered. My vote in that guitar would be to go with using one output as the REB is designed for that

I have the Rare Earth Blend and like that pickup a lot. My suggestion would be to install the REB with the cable coming out of the guitar and see how you like that pickup on its own first. Then see how it works in combination with the system in your guitar. That's super easy to do. My experience with that pickup when blended with either a K&K or an under saddle was that the K&K was a more beneficial second source. Of course your results may be different.

When blending pickups you also have to consider what you are plugging into. The REB has fairly low output and will probably need to be boosted to compete with the Prefix which is a 9 volt system. I've used dual source a bit over the years and it can work really well but it's a juggling act and when you start EQ'ing two pickups it can get tricky. Also like in most live acoustic applications (if this is your intent) as the volume changes so will your EQ and you may need to raise or lower one source or the other.

You might also consider contacting Fishman directly and ask if they've had experience blending those two systems.

[open-road-matt]

Hi Cochese,
Thanks for the advice. I did talk with a guy at Rainsong yesterday about drilling a second hole and he advised me on how to do so but he agreed with everyone else on just going with the one jack.

I have used the REB before and it is one of my favorite pickups and it does sound great in this guitar and blended with the stock under saddle transducer.

I have used several different dual sources and even a triple source back when I had my Pendulum SPS-1 and I'm fairly confident that the QSC TouchMix will allow me to do everything I want to do with regard to mixing the sources.

As for the actual wiring, here is what Fishman sent me when I talked with them about this last week:



So the under saddle transducer will stay on the tip and the REB will be on the ring.

I left a message this morning for the tech that could do this so hopefully I'll be up and running soon.

Thanks again for the help!
Matt

[loco gringo]

You probably know this, but you can put either pickup on the tip or the ring. I put the pickup on the tip that I wanted to use if I ever wanted to, or was forced to, use a standard guitar cable.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by loco gringo

You probably know this, but you can put either pickup on the tip or the ring. I put the pickup on the tip that I wanted to use if I ever wanted to, or was forced to, use a standard guitar cable.

Thanks loco gringo. I do know that. If my local tech gets back in touch my plan is to see about having him wire it exactly as shown in the diagram.

If I don't hear back, I don't know. Probably two jacks then. I can drill. I can't solder.

Matt

[HHP]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

Seems like the general consensus is one jack. Hmmm. It would look nicer and the Y cable would be easier. Maybe I'll take the guitar and pickup to the one guy who could do this and see what he thinks.

Matt

I would think the ideal would be the stereo jack feeding into a 2 channel blender that would mix the signals before it goes to a mixer or board.

I had a Wechter with a 3 pickup Artec set up that had a built in blender and fed the mixed signal to either a 1/4" jack or an XLR. That was a great configuration and you could tune the mix very easily.

[ericcsong]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

Thanks loco gringo. I do know that. If my local tech gets back in touch my plan is to see about having him wire it exactly as shown in the diagram.

If I don't hear back, I don't know. Probably two jacks then. I can drill. I can't solder.

Matt

Matt, I googled Duluth and also typed in electronics. You can probably take it in to Evolution Electronics Computer repair and ask them to solder for you. Seems like a pretty easy job (soldering) that you can outsource to non-music people