Replacing machine heads, does weight matter?

[kileytoo]

I just got a new Hohner HW200 acoustic guitar. It's the perfect size for me (7/8) but I hesitated for a while before to buy because the top looked yellowish in the official photos. The other day I received it and I was pleasantly surprised. The top has in fact an amber tone, the pins have a black dot inlay, and the bridge is glossy. It looks like a well-crafted, beautifully finished instrument, nothing like the photos, but there's one thing off. For some reason, they used 3-in-a-plate open tuners, the same type now used for classical guitars but fixed at the back of the headstock. I just had to remove them straight away and I am now looking for 3+3 closed, Grover-style replacement tuners.

I noticed that even the "mini" tuners from Grover, Gotoh, and Schaller weigh between 200 and 240g (source stewmac). That's more than twice the weight of the two plates I removed (around 100g). I wonder if one of the reasons they went for this type of tuners was their light weight? Maybe the headstock of a small-bodied guitar is not supposed to carry the same weight as a full-sized one?

The only same-weight, closed tuners I found are the new Gotoh Stealth Keys at around 70g (source Gotoh). They would also match the existing 8mm holes, however for the two tuners closer to the nut I would have to fill and redrill the existing screw holes, which I am not going to do, so I'm considering mixing four stealth with two Grover-style tuners.

There seem to be nothing in between (like 150g tuners).

Any thoughts?

[fazool]

I don't know about the sizes and exact fit, offhand but I would not mix different tuners - I would rather drill & fill which is pretty noninvasive.

If weight is a concern you might consider open gear tuners. I switched from sealed Martins to open gear Martins on my 000-15M and I love them.

[kileytoo]

Thanks. I do feel slightly uneasy about mixing tuners but it's my best scenario until I learn that I can confidently double the total weight of the tuners with 6 mini closed Grover.

The guitar came with open gear tuners, I removed them because I want to replace them with closed tuners, that much I know.

[runamuck]

I seriously doubt that new, closed back tuners, will throw off the balance of that guitar.

[Hank Linderman]

The weight / mass of the tuners will affect the tone of the instrument, if only slightly. Lighter tuners such as open gear make for a snappier tone - heavy tuners will dull the attack and increase sustain. I prefer open gear tuners. I like the more responsive feel.

I have an HD28 with the big Grovers and I have been tempted to replace them, but I've left it alone since that's the way the instrument was built. It has a certain sound which makes it great for strumming and flatpicking.

I'd suggest going to a luthier to do this if you must, but I'd also consider keeping the stock tuners. If the instrument sounds good it is good. You can get used to the look if that's all that concerns you.

Play the guitar for a few months and see how you feel about the tuners.

Best...H

[fazool]

Mathematically, the amount of change in a guitars tone, due to the changing mass of a tuner is stratospherically small. Everything will change the tone of a guitar. The question is how perceivable those changes are.

[kileytoo]

Thanks Hank, but there's no doubt in my mind that I want closed tuners, and I can't really go to a luthier (the tuners alone will already cost me half as much as the guitar).

@runamuck, I think you may be right, after all there is a number of other reasons why Hohner may have chosen that kind of tuners beyond weight.

[kileytoo]

Just to make it clear, my concern was that in the long term the headstock may bend a little bit (or worse).

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by kileytoo

Just to make it clear, my concern was that in the long term the headstock may bend a little bit (or worse).

There is no need for concern for that.

The added weight will make the head end of the guitar noticeably heavier and will alter the physical balance of the instrument, which may or may not matter depending upon how you hold/support the instrument and play.

Theories/opinions vary on the effect of increasing the mass of the guitar head. Regardless, if you want closed tuners, chose good ones, install them, enjoy playing.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by kileytoo

Just to make it clear, my concern was that in the long term the headstock may bend a little bit (or worse).

Not even remotely.

[kileytoo]

Well that settles the matter. A slight shift in the balance it's not a big deal to me. Thanks so much everyone, great to get such good advice

[arm]

I have an 80s Hohner MW 400N, cheap laminate dread but really well-built, perfect for jams, traveling, etc.

The original 3 on a plate tuners were unstable, and had unusual post dimensions (39mm spacing?), so replacements wouldn't fit.

I fitted regular 3+3 half-round, closed-back Gotohs from StewMac, mainly because the buttons were similar. They work perfectly and cover the existing holes. A lot heavier than the originals, but I haven't noticed any weight issues, if anything the overall balance feels better.

If your guitar is new though, the stock tuners should work fine. Seems to me that you just don't like the look.

I wouldn't recommend mixing tuners.

[kileytoo]

I know that the stock tuners would work fine, and to tell the truth yes, I don't like the looks of open gear tuners, or that they tend to collect dust. Unless it's a vintage guitar, of course... It seems to me that closed tuners like the Rotomatics were a step forward, so I don't get why one may want vintage-looking tuners (or vintage-looking guitars, for that matter).

[Alan Carruth]

One thing that makes the guitar so much fun is that 'small' changes can really matter. There are resonant modes of the neck/body system that can, sometimes, work ('couple') with air modes inside the box, and when that happens it can make a noticeable difference in the tone. The match has to be pretty exact, though, and that's why a 'small' change can, in some cases, make a big difference in the sound (think about two strings that are 'just a little' out of tune...). Also, in general, the lowest neck/body resonant mode is well below the lowest 'air' mode in pitch on steel strings, so it's not common to get that match. Still, once in a while....

One way to get a 'between' weight with sealed tuners is to swap out the metal buttons for wood. This can amount to the weight of two machines; not a negligible change. They will still be heavier than the open tuners, of course.

[Tom West]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

One way to get a 'between' weight with sealed tuners is to swap out the metal buttons for wood. This can amount to the weight of two machines; not a negligible change. They will still be heavier than the open tuners, of course.

I find this makes a large difference in the balance...........most likely the lighter the guitar the bigger the difference.
Tom