time for a change

[theMRAZfan]

Hey, I reached a point where I feel it's time for a big change. Recently I met with a coupke of people to play guitar. We all love Clapton so there was no problem with playing his songs together. But at some point they started to improvise , it all sounded nice but I just made big eyes and stopped playing. Really I dont remember being so ashamed before. I felt like a kind of guy who learned something by heart and that's it. I vould learn play the violin or trumpet the same way - just remember certain patterns. So for me it means I am not a guitarist because everyone can repeat patterns, not everyone can create music.

Now question for you, the real guitarists. How can i learn improvisation? I was told to learn pentatonic scale which I did in couple positions, but is that all? Even if I improvise along with a backing track my solos are....well....embarassing. Maybe i know it to be done to fast.

2. How come guys like clapton or emmanuel who said they never learned to read music know everything about the fretboard? I think they had to apply theory at some point in order to know what they do , unless they just learned patterns.

Sorry for a long post but I feel desperate now, that after playing for years I am able to play some fingerstyle songs and strum chords.

[sublro]

first of all, you ARE a guitarist, and remember there are a lot of people who wish they could play as well as you can :-)

second, lots and lots of great players, Clapton included have learned their way around the fretboard and soloing by putting on records and copying what they heard.

lots and lots and lots of great guitar players are playing mainly what they stole from those before them...

soloing boils down to a couple things. boxes and patterns (scales) and finding the individual notes within the chords that when strung together as the chords change, make for interesting "melodies"

a good excercise would be to play a song that you know the vocal line really well, then attempt to play the vocal rather than sing it. this can lead you into what it's like to play real solo's rather than just patterns.

hope that helps.

Hear it in your head and play it. I suspect non-readers are better at this than those who have read from the ground up, having had to do everything by ear. This does not mean one cannot develop an ear.

[amac]

Originally Posted by theMRAZfan

Hey, I reached a point where I feel it's time for a big change. Recently I met with a coupke of people to play guitar. We all love Clapton so there was no problem with playing his songs together. But at some point they started to improvise , it all sounded nice but I just made big eyes and stopped playing. Really I dont remember being so ashamed before. I felt like a kind of guy who learned something by heart and that's it. I vould learn play the violin or trumpet the same way - just remember certain patterns. So for me it means I am not a guitarist because everyone can repeat patterns, not everyone can create music.

Now question for you, the real guitarists. How can i learn improvisation? I was told to learn pentatonic scale which I did in couple positions, but is that all? Even if I improvise along with a backing track my solos are....well....embarassing. Maybe i know it to be done to fast.

2. How come guys like clapton or emmanuel who said they never learned to read music know everything about the fretboard? I think they had to apply theory at some point in order to know what they do , unless they just learned patterns.

Sorry for a long post but I feel desperate now, that after playing for years I am able to play some fingerstyle songs and strum chords.

I feel your pain. I don't know how long you've been playing, but soloing just isn't coming natural to me. I've asked the same question and the answer is always the same - practice, practice, practice. I watch you tube videos and then try to repeat what I heard - NEVER CLOSE! I'm determined to learn, but sometimes I feel I have no musical ability whatsoever. In your same mode of thinking, I started with a new instructor and I'm learning the theory side of music.

You're not alone. Keep at it.

[mattd]

Guitar is not an easy instrument for everybody including me, I too have a hard time improvising on the guitar unless I am just noodling around on the couch. So recently I wanted to learn a second instrument and I decided on a banjo, totally different animal, I got a good quality banjo and began the learning process and everything on that instrument has come to me way easier than the guitar. I am way ahead of other beginners with the same amount of time put in, improvising is a huge part of banjo playing and for some reason it is coming to me naturally with that instrument and it is quickly become my main instrument but I will never quit playing guitar either, they are both enjoyable but it it is fun mixing it up.

[devellis]

I think what a lot of people do is learn licks, that is, runs of notes. Then, they can plug those into a variety of situations where they're appropriate. I think once you get to that stage, other little runs will become obvious. Some may even come about by accident.

Some musicians can spontaneously compose original improvisations in real time. But far more build up a storehouse of musical phrases that they can call upon. The more experience you have with this, the more flexibility you develop.

I can do some of this but not nearly at the level that I see others do it. But I'll take a tune I know well, find a phrase within that tune, try a bunch of variations of that phrase, and settle in on two or three that I like. I repeat them until they're fluid and I can play them as easily as the standard phrase. Then, when I'm playing that tune, I can toss in those pre-learned variations pretty effortlessly. Invariably, some of those same variations will work in other tunes, as well.

It's kind of like talking or writing. We all learn certain phrases that express specific ideas. As we speak or write, we're not really completely improvising but choosing appropriate phrases from a large supply that we've built up. Music is similar. And in both cases, the trick is to learn phrases that become part of our vocabulary but don't sound too much like cliches. That's the part that takes a lot of time and work but that can really improve the way we sound.

[Pitar]

Originally Posted by theMRAZfan

Hey, I reached a point where I feel it's time for a big change. Recently I met with a coupke of people to play guitar. We all love Clapton so there was no problem with playing his songs together. But at some point they started to improvise , it all sounded nice but I just made big eyes and stopped playing. Really I dont remember being so ashamed before. I felt like a kind of guy who learned something by heart and that's it. I vould learn play the violin or trumpet the same way - just remember certain patterns. So for me it means I am not a guitarist because everyone can repeat patterns, not everyone can create music.

Now question for you, the real guitarists. How can i learn improvisation? I was told to learn pentatonic scale which I did in couple positions, but is that all? Even if I improvise along with a backing track my solos are....well....embarassing. Maybe i know it to be done to fast.

2. How come guys like clapton or emmanuel who said they never learned to read music know everything about the fretboard? I think they had to apply theory at some point in order to know what they do , unless they just learned patterns.

Sorry for a long post but I feel desperate now, that after playing for years I am able to play some fingerstyle songs and strum chords.

Improvising takes three things.

1. A developed ear.
2. Knowledge of the fretboard (also by ear).
3. The chops to put to use 1 and 2 above.

You asked.

[DrGreb]

Lots of good advice here. You can really advance your guitar skills through the art of improvisation, but I would just add that there is no shame in not knowing something. I would also say that soloists (guitarists and vocalists) appreciate good, solid rhythm players behind them, and if you can keep time and make the changes, you're already one of the most important people in the band.

[Chris' Guitar]

I also have been shy or scared to venture further into lead but I recently checked out (estaban 10 dvd lesson) from the library and wow!
I seem to be getting bits and pieces of it quite quickly. One thing I see is all the scales I've learned plus the major and minor blues can be used very quickly to adapt to lead. Lol! 20 years of playing to finally realize this. Hahaha.
Oh well its progress and that's all what counts.

Chris

[zhunter]

This is a hard question to answer with words. Like asking how do you drive a car. We all can see it but try really explaining how it is done. And it looks like we are struggling to answer. This resonates for me because I am working with another guitar player that can sit down and develop intricate solos to play to a song but cannot deviate from his set path. On stage he plays the exact same solo night after night. I walk out and play whatever I can think of and execute based on what I want to accomplish at the time (not always very well mind you). He wants to get there. So we are actively discussing how to improve his improvisation skills.

I think a good starting point is the notes are in the chords. No this isn't the way I started. I came into it more as blues box licks, to scales, to intervals etc. but I moved in that chord direction. You can go a long way working off of the notes that are contained in the chords you play. Of course it really helps to know the in-between notes so you can nicely connect all of those chord tones and that is where scales come in. Note durations, bends, vibrato, slides, parallel 5ths, 6ths are all things you can dig into. The classic blues box is a good way to confine your area of interest and visually start to cop the fret board and the relationship with chords.

Another improve technique is use of motifs. If you play the root note of the 1 chord at 1/4 note intervals for the duration, repeating the motif would mean playing the root note of the IV chord at 1/4 note intervals for the duration. That won't win you any prizes but it may help grasp the motif concept. I use motifs a lot when I improvise.

Lastly do everything you can to develop your ear. I used to sit around (or drive around) and listen to ear training tapes where I learned to pick out intervals and chord quality (major, minor, etc.). Hearing is essential to learning.

Improvisation is really is as big as the ocean and you may do better by picking a pond or even a puddle to swim in. I do believe the more you understand music and how it works the better you will be equipped to improvise. A teacher can help speed the process but it is possible to just bang away at it using your ear to guide you. And the internet is full of stuff but it is really hard to filter it. Maybe you can find a jam partner. That can be a big help.

hunter

[sbeirnes]

Learn the common scales, then just sit down and play notes from those scales over a CD or something.

Just put on your favourite song and solo away over top of the chord changes until it sounds good.

Try to stick to small, three or four note groupings from inside the scale, don't just play the scale from top to bottom.

I have a very hard time playing someone else's solo note for note, but improvising a solo is fairly easy for me.

The only time I actually play something note for note is when I am flat picking fiddle tunes. Even then, I still improvise a little inside the lines.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by theMRAZfan

…How come guys like clapton or emmanuel who said they never learned to read music know everything about the fretboard? I think they had to apply theory at some point in order to know what they do , unless they just learned patterns.

Hi tMf…

I can drive to our house from any spot in our town. In fact there is nowhere in our city you could drop me I could not get home without a map. I've never consulted a map. And I probably wouldn't pay attention to the street names. It's not how I navigate streets.

We've made that trip and paid attention to where we were at thousands of times (lived here 40 years) so I'm able to just drive there.

Some people have just played so much music, and began paying attention to how songs resemble each other (or differ from each other) that they have accumulated vast amounts of skills. And they did it a song or a lick at a time.

Not saying you cannot get there quicker, just answering your Eric/Tommy question.

[arktrav]

I have owned and tried to play too many guitars. I've got almost every book you can get, I've gone to guitar camps, I've studied and tried to learn and on and on it goes. When I had the opportunity to talk with really good guitar players, at camps and ect, none of them, none of them started like me and tried dto learn like me! They ALL learned by ear and worked on hearing a tune, lick, song and setting down until they had it on their guitar. I found this to be true, even with the people who were selling tab books, etc. They learned by just pulling it out of the guitar, working, seemingly obsessed with just learing the tune on their guitar. I wish I had done that, I'm too old now to start all over again (70) but if I were advising my grandchild or somone starting out, I would advise them to try learning the theory of how it is put together, but NOTHING beats just learning where all those sounds come from. Even, just fooling around with the guitar producies knowledge on how it sounds and where those sounds can be made and found. Then moving from simle to complex. None of the really good guitarist I've had the occassion to talk with, just picked it up and started being good, right from the start. It always started with "mary had a little lamb" anywhere and everywhere on the guitar and on and on.....I'm trying to work on my ear, but if I had done this in the beginning, I think I could have done so much more on the guitar, banjo, ukulele and mandolin. All of them help each other. It is just the synergy of it all.

Man ,to be young and know what I think I know now! Sorry for the long poste, but it really represents the regret of years of striving in the wrong direction!

[Lacks Focus]

I'm not at the point where I feel the need to improvise in my guitar playing, but after 10 years of (adult) piano lessons, I was frustrated by the fact that all I could do on that instrument was play pieces that were put in front of me. If a friend came over with a guitar and wanted to play together, I couldn't do it. I'm not talking about soloing, just simple accompaniment like the stuff that seems so easy to do in strumming a guitar. I told my teacher that while I enjoyed everything we'd done together, I felt like I wasn't doing anything that a trained monkey couldn't do. An exceptionally well-trained monkey, maybe, but a monkey nonetheless. Unfortunately, the recession put an end to my lessons and we never had the chance to explore it further.

Fortunately for my already-limited self-esteem, it was about that time that I learned that a good friend of mine, who holds an endowed chair in the cello section of the Indianapolis Symphony, can't improvise a lick, and has extreme envy for those who can. So it's really a matter of what you've been exposed to and learned from, along with a healthy dose of perspective.

All of that is to say I don't have any suggestions on the best path forward for you, but rather to say you shouldn't beat yourself up. I can think of a lot of appropriate emotional responses to your situation, but shame isn't one of them, nor should it be.

[HHP]

I don't do anything I would describe as "improvise". I mostly play 16 bar fiddle tunes so, when playing with only 1 or 2 others, they can get repetitive and boring. Once I learn a tune, I work up variations I can use. Might be as simple as moving the melody line from treble to bass, adding carter style strums, shifting from linear to crosspicking in sections. I mostly work these out in advance so I can drop them in a tune on demand.