Acoustic Archtop Playability (again)

[greenchimneys]

Hello everyone,
This is my first post here on what seems like a really knowledge rich forum. I've had negative experience in the not to distant past with acoustic archtop guitars. I swore them off a while back, and really enjoy the playability of my Martin 00015M guitar, but that hankering seems like its back. I love the sound, the volume, and the looks of archtop guitars, but the two that I had just about killed my left hand. One was a Gretsch Synchromatic (new) and the other, more recent one was one made by Thomas Garvey (used). I fitted both with Med. gauge strings. 3 note "Freddie Green" chords and single note lines were not a problem, even with high action (I played bass guitar and Guitarron for years), but lower fret barre chords and some "jazz" chords were really awful or impossible to play.
I wonder now- could a guy like Eddie Lang or Freddie Green possibly be able to physically play a first fret F7 or Fm7 barre chord on one of these beautiful beasts?! They're not chords I use alot, but if I can't play every chord on a guitar, its useless to me, I guess.
So help me out- what are your feelings on the subject? Am I wasting my time lusting after one of these again, or are there some that are really playable? I play jazz exclusively, on acoustics exclusively.

[mr. beaumont]

I dunno man...bad setups? I can play those on my archtops no prob. Not that it's common to come across the need for full five and six string barres in jazz.

I think with a good setup an archtop can be much easier to play than a flattop...simply more variables are easily adjustable.

[dchristo]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I dunno man...bad setups? I can play those on my archtops no prob. Not that it's common to come across the need for full five and six string barres in jazz.

I think with a good setup an archtop can be much easier to play than a flattop...simply more variables are easily adjustable.

I agree......setups are important

[robatsu]

I agree w/the setup issues. I've owned two recent Gretsch Synchromatics, I thought they were wonderful to play.

One thing to keep in mind is string gauge. Yeah, Freddie Green and all those guys back in the day comping on acoustic archtops unamplified used pretty heavy strings (and high action, I've read that Freddie's guitar had string height of like 1/2 inch or more at 12th fret, don't know if it is true though).

But these days, even playing on an acoustic w/a floating pickup, jazz guys are probably on average using lighter strings than your average flattop guy.

I know that jazz comping I've learned from Galbraith's book and so forth is pretty tough for me to play on my flattops but on my archtop w/lighter strings, it is a breeze.

[corlay]

I just picked up a used Eastman AR605CE as my first-ever archtop, and was pleasantly surprised how easily it plays.

[greenchimneys]

You know, I can guarantee setup was the issue with the Synchromatic. Great looking and pretty good sounding guitar, but came setup with a high action at the nut, and light gauge strings, which I don't feel had the "oomph" I needed. Taught me a good lesson about buying guitars online...

The Garvey, on the other hand, at the store was setup a little too well, meaning it had what I believe were 11-50 half round ELECTRIC strings on it and super low action- making those low register "3 noters" easily prone to fret buzz. I should have had the store set it up with Med gauge strings and then tried it. Either way, after setting it up myself with Med gauge strings and adjusting the truss rod, it was a finger breaker, and I almost think now that the tiny frets and nearly flat fingerboard radius had something to do with that. Why on Earth would you want small frets on an acoustic guitar?

Sometimes I wonder if i shouldn't try out one of those Godin 5th ave guitars. I know they don't sound very good and aren't very loud, but maybe I could work my way into playing (in other words, maybe it's me, not the guitars) on an archtop that way, rather than spending $3000+ on a decent carved top solid wood model (sorry, I won't do the Eastmans or Loars). I wouldn't be out a lot of money and wouldn't feel bad if I "messed it up!"

[greenchimneys]

I should clarify: I know most archtop players play an acoustic/electric with flats and a floater, but I'm hoping someone who has a purely acoustic model could chime in.

And to mr. beaumont: I totally agree about barre chords. I sort of use them for effect once in a while but also as my number one guitar playability test. If I can't play a clean barre F7, Fm7, Bb7, Bbm7, etc at the first fret, its a no go.

...and thanks for all the replies everyone!

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah...all I have full acoustic wise is a Loar lh600...strung with .12's...can do the barres no prob.

[Bern]

As Jeff said, bad setup. Archtops, if properly set up, play like butter.

[andyi5]

Only owned one archtop, eventually sold it as I couldn't get on with the tone. Antoria jazzstar, quite nice plugged in but not so great acoustically. On that model it was easy enough to wind down the screws at the bridge to get it playable.

On a flattop, it's also good to get the action down low, almost electric like, no Freddie Green like stamina required. Very useful for me with acoustic guitar has been to change the fingering and play with much less barring. I have a wider nut width, 1 3/4" on my current guitar and it lets me get all my fingers down much of the time - way easier work once the fingers get the hang of where to go. I started on jazz comping with Barry Galbraith too - superb stuff - though have to say I'd have progressed much quicker if he'd thrown in a few chord diagrams!

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by greenchimneys

You know, I can guarantee setup was the issue with the Synchromatic. Great looking and pretty good sounding guitar, but came setup with a high action at the nut, and light gauge strings, which I don't feel had the "oomph" I needed. Taught me a good lesson about buying guitars online...

The Garvey, on the other hand, at the store was setup a little too well, meaning it had what I believe were 11-50 half round ELECTRIC strings on it and super low action- making those low register "3 noters" easily prone to fret buzz. I should have had the store set it up with Med gauge strings and then tried it. Either way, after setting it up myself with Med gauge strings and adjusting the truss rod, it was a finger breaker, and I almost think now that the tiny frets and nearly flat fingerboard radius had something to do with that. Why on Earth would you want small frets on an acoustic guitar?

Sometimes I wonder if i shouldn't try out one of those Godin 5th ave guitars. I know they don't sound very good and aren't very loud, but maybe I could work my way into playing (in other words, maybe it's me, not the guitars) on an archtop that way, rather than spending $3000+ on a decent carved top solid wood model (sorry, I won't do the Eastmans or Loars). I wouldn't be out a lot of money and wouldn't feel bad if I "messed it up!"

The Godins are pretty cool. Get the Kingpin, then you can plug it in, too--as an electric archtop, that guitar sounds great. I have one as a backup to my Heritage, and I'll never part with it...an all around great, worry free jazzbox.

I'll assume you have your reasons for not going Loar or Eastman...I cannot reccomend the Loar, even though I like mine--it needed a lot of setup and tweaking when I got it to make it playable...but it's a decent "raw materials" box, and has a very good sound.

But you're cheating yourself not checking out Eastman.

[Anand00028]

I have an old Epiphone Zenith, mid forties, and love the tone. The action is a little high but I'm sure a good set up, which I plan to have done soon, should improve in that respect.
I had an Eastman AR605 that was good but once I got the Epiphone I decided to move it on.

[bohemian]

Info says Freddie Green's height at the 14th was around 5/16ths-3/8ths

Consider he did not play like other guitarists.. he is an exception, if not exceptional.