Stupid capo question(s)

[elpenguinoloco]

Okay, so my knowledge of music theory is pretty limited, and it's mildly embarrassing, but I plan on doing what I can to change that by learning everything I can. but this is just some really basic stuff that for whatever reason I couldn't figure out on my own, so forgive my ignorance:

I do know how a capo works--changes the key you're playing in. If you take a regular G and throw a capo on the 1st fret, you now have a G#... (right?!) So I guess my question is just how exactly to make that change. So say I'm playing key of D, a simple D-G-A progression, but I decide I don't like it. I capo 2 and now play C-F-G () and I'm in the key of C? and it's the same thing? Maybe?

The other thing I guess is related, though I'm hoping you all will enlighten me as to exactly how. Another reason I have heard/read for using a capo in addition to better fitting a song to your voice or playing easier chords, is if you're in the case of two guitars playing together, strumming the chords to the same song, it can spice things up a bit to capo one of them. This confuses me. It seems too easy to just put the capo on wherever you want and then play the same chords as your un-capo'd partner, but then if you transpose it seems to me you're in a different key, which is bad news. How does this work?!

[BigD]

If you play a C chord shape without a capo, you will be playing a chord for music in key of C.

If you add a capo at 2nd fret, everything is raised by one tone. So if you play the same C chord shape as if the capo was the nut, then you will hear a D chord. By moving a capo up and down the neck, you can change the key easily but play the same chord shapes, as if nothing had changed (except you have shortened the guitar using the capo).

If you have two guitars, one with a capo, then they will have to play different chord shapes to compensate to play the same chord:
Guitar 1 : no capo plays D chord shape for D chord sound.
Guitar 2 : capo at second fret will have to play a C chord shape to make a D chord sound.

So say I'm playing key of D, a simple D-G-A progression, but I decide I don't like it. I capo 2 and now play C-F-G () and I'm in the key of C? and it's the same thing? Maybe?

If you play C-F-G chord shapes with a capo at fret 2, you will actually be playing chords that sound D-G-A so you will still be playing a progression in key of D.



One reason you might have one with a capo up the neck somewhere on one of the guitars to provide variety of "colour" and "texture" to the music. The two guitarists are unlikely to be playing the same shapes though...

Additionally a capo can change the feel of the music. Fast picking with a capo on fret 5 gives a real cutting edge to it which may desirable to cut threough other instruments.

Hope this helps.

Big D

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by elpenguinoloco

Okay, so my knowledge of music theory is pretty limited, and it's mildly embarrassing, but I plan on doing what I can to change that by learning everything I can. but this is just some really basic stuff that for whatever reason I couldn't figure out on my own, so forgive my ignorance:

I do know how a capo works--changes the key you're playing in. If you take a regular G and throw a capo on the 1st fret, you now have a G#... (right?!) So I guess my question is just how exactly to make that change. So say I'm playing key of D, a simple D-G-A progression, but I decide I don't like it. I capo 2 and now play C-F-G () and I'm in the key of C? and it's the same thing? Maybe?

The other thing I guess is related, though I'm hoping you all will enlighten me as to exactly how. Another reason I have heard/read for using a capo in addition to better fitting a song to your voice or playing easier chords, is if you're in the case of two guitars playing together, strumming the chords to the same song, it can spice things up a bit to capo one of them. This confuses me. It seems too easy to just put the capo on wherever you want and then play the same chords as your un-capo'd partner, but then if you transpose it seems to me you're in a different key, which is bad news. How does this work?!

Hi elpen etc…
You have several questions here...

If you capo two frets and play C-F-G relative to the capo, you are playing in key of C but sounding in Key of D.

If you and another guitarist decide that one of you will capo for the sake of a better arrangement, then you have to figure out which key the capoed guitar needs to be played in to sound in the same key as the non-capoed one.

You analogy of key of D, playing chords D-G-A but you didn't like it so you capoed at the 2nd fret and played C-F-G is on the right track. If the non-capoed guitarist plays in key of D, and the one who is playing capoed at the second fret plays in ''C'' (relative to the capo) then you are going to sound in the same key.

And your chords will sound good together, but will actually provide more variety because they will be 'voiced' differently. You could also have one capo at the 5th fret and play in key of A. The chords A-D-E for the capoed player would be same as no-capo playing D-G-A.

Hope this helps...

[bishopdm]

Larry, as always, you are right on the money. But if I may suggest a slightly different wording of your second sentence, for clarity:

...you are playing chord shapes as if you were in the key of C but the chords sound in the key of D.

I'm probably splitting really fine hairs (they're the only ones I have left), but to state that one plays "in the key of C" but the sound is in the key of D might be a bit confusing to the original poster. If not, then no worries. Not meant as a criticism at all.

Elpen, do these responses help at all?

[geokie8]

Originally Posted by elpenguinoloco

It seems too easy to just put the capo on wherever you want and then play the same chords as your un-capo'd partner, but then if you transpose it seems to me you're in a different key, which is bad news.

You're right, that is too easy.

If your uncapo'd partner is playing a D-A-G progression and you want to add some flavor by putting a capo on the 5th fret, you'll need to compensate for the higher pitch. Backing down five 1/2 steps, you'll need to play A-E-D to be in the same key. You'll be playing different chords but they'll come out the same. However, the combination will have a more textured sound because you're higher up in the sound spectrum than he is (like having a violin and viola playing a duet instead of two violins).

geokie8

[naccoachbob]

Adding another question to the mix.
If my partner plays open, no capo in D. Then I capo up 2 frets and play the C chord. We both are playing the D sound if I understand, but here's my question.
The D chord is played with the first 4 strings if I understand (maybe the 5th since it's an A?).
And say the C chord I play uses 5 strings.
Will we both be playing the same notes?
I guess I could sit down and figure each note on the fretboard for each chord shape and get that answer, and if I'm not too lazy I will, but seems a good question.
If they are indeed a little bit different, it would add to what others said about flavor.
I hope others are interested in this question and someone with way more knowledge than me can jump on in.
Thanks,
Bob

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by naccoachbob

Adding another question to the mix.
If my partner plays open, no capo in D. Then I capo up 2 frets and play the C chord. We both are playing the D sound if I understand, but here's my question.
The D chord is played with the first 4 strings if I understand (maybe the 5th since it's an A?).
And say the C chord I play uses 5 strings.
Will we both be playing the same notes?

Hi Bob…
Some of them will be the same and some different.

The bottom C for the Capoed player will be the same ''D'' as the non-capoed player.

[naccoachbob]

Ok, I just worked it out, I think.
Un capo'd, 1st string is F#, capo'd is F#.
Un capo'd 2nd string is D, same as capo'd.
Un capo'd 3rd is A, same as capo'd.
Un capo'd 4th is D, but capo'd is F#.
And Un capo'd 5th is A, but capo'd is F#.
So a bit of difference.
I bet the other chords in the mix would show similar results.
Does that seem right?

[elpenguinoloco]

Originally Posted by bishopdm

Elpen, do these responses help at all?

Yup! Questions answered quite satisfactorily. I never cease to be amazed at the seemingly infinite wealth of quality information and wisdom found here on AGF

Thanks so much guys!

[BigD]

[pendantic] I would avoid stating that a chord "sounds in the key of..." as the chord taken in isolation not necessarily indicate the key of a piece. However it may imply particular key in which the progression may be written. [/pendantic]. Probably better to describe it in terms of "root chord in key" or whatever...

This was always very confusing for me especially on tab where the intended key could be either C or D. Do players using printed Tab (where you can't switch the software to notation display) find the intended key ambiguous?

BigD

Originally Posted by bishopdm

I'm probably splitting really fine hairs (they're the only ones I have left), but to state that one plays "in the key of C" but the sound is in the key of D might be a bit confusing to the original poster. If not, then no worries. Not meant as a criticism at all.

Elpen, do these responses help at all?

[shawlie]

Originally Posted by naccoachbob

Ok, I just worked it out, I think.
Un capo'd, 1st string is F#, capo'd is F#.
Un capo'd 2nd string is D, same as capo'd.
Un capo'd 3rd is A, same as capo'd.
Un capo'd 4th is D, but capo'd is F#.
And Un capo'd 5th is A, but capo'd is F#.
So a bit of difference.
I bet the other chords in the mix would show similar results.
Does that seem right?

It is right, but the fifth string C chord (capo 2nd fret) would be a D note (for the un-capo'd A...maybe that was just a typing mistake on your part, of course, everything else is right).

Other chords will be kind of similair, but depends on how you play the chords - a bar G (no capo) and an F (capo 2) will be exactly the same, but an open G (no capo) and the F won't be exactly the same (same notes of course, but in a slightly different order... well, the two E strings will be the same).

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by BigD

[pendantic] I would avoid stating that a chord "sounds in the key of..." as the chord taken in isolation not necessarily indicate the key of a piece. However it may imply particular key in which the progression may be written. [/pendantic]. Probably better to describe it in terms of "root chord in key" or whatever...

This was always very confusing for me especially on tab where the intended key could be either C or D. Do players using printed Tab (where you can't switch the software to notation display) find the intended key ambiguous?

BigD

As a teacher preparing my own notation/tab, I had this problem initially: should the notation - and chords - present the actual (concert) sound, or the way the key and chords look when capo'd?

My solution is to treat everything from the capo, as if in open position.
Eg, if a song is in concert Bb major, but uses a capo on fret 3 (in order to use easy G, C and D shapes), I'll notate it as if in G. The tab counts fret numbers from the capo (so fret 3 is 0, fret 4 is 1, etc).
Then I put a note on the top of the chart "For original key, use capo on fret 3."

This means that a player (or singer) can choose to play it in open position (key of G), or with a capo on any fret, and maintain the same shapes. They don't have to play along with the original (in Bb), but if they want to, then they put the capo on 3.

The alternative I started out with (notation in concert with chord symbols showing actual sound, and tab measured from the capo showing chord shapes) was complicated and confusing, because there would be two sets of chords in different keys. (And it made it more complicated to prepare the notation with my software too!)

Of course, there's still the issue of the fret number count, esp if there are high positions (some distance from the capo) and if one is used to assessing fret numbers from open position - eg using fret markers to assist. But it's better than the alternatives, IMO.

[Jack Sullivan]

In general, for you to better understand the capo thing, view all your open chords as moveable chords with root notes. G is no longer always a G. It's whatever the 6th string note is depending on what fret your on relative to the capo. Thats your root note. Same thing for say an A. It's no longer always an A. Whatever fret you're playing the A on, the 3rd string note is now the name of the chord. Again that's your root note. Find the root notes for all the open chords and you'll be in good shape. This way when your buddie is playing D-G-A
you can now slap the capo on and play shapes with the root notes of D, G and A and you will both be playing in the same key. It should sound really cool.

[Hack Amatuer]

Ah, I hope I don't get beat up here too bad for this but . . . it is my opinion that you should toss the capo way to the back of your sock & skivey drawer somewhere until barre chords are learned. You basically need to know where you are at and how to execute a barre chord to play. Once in a while, yes capos are used for arrangements that may require them but for the most part, the melody can be achived without a capo while executing chord melody by switching to a different position. My advice is, use your first finger as the capo while you are learning, then switch later on.

[Losov]

Originally Posted by Hack Amatuer

it is my opinion that you should toss the capo way to the back of your sock & skivey drawer somewhere until barre chords are learned.

Disagree. The capo does not eliminate the need for barre chords, and using only barre chords does not compensate for what can be accomplished with a properly used capo.