Devaluing a guitar by replacing tuners? (and leaving screw holes...)

nobo · #1 01-19-2010, 11:44 AM

I have a 1988 S-7 (basically a hog/spruce O Lowden) It has some Schaller tuners (14:1) which I'm
not a fan of and was going to replace them with some Gotoh 510s I
have spare.

However, the screws on the Schallers come out at 90 degrees from the edge of the tuner (unusually, protruding horizontally rather than downwards, assuming the guitar is standing upright). I can't find suitable replacements that are smooth and higher ratio and already have some Gotoh 510s (with the screw coming out at 45 degrees). If I replace the Schallers on my S-7 with Gotohs, the holes on the back of the headsock are in different places and so I would need to fill the gaps with wax (or whatever else you recommend... ?).

Whilst I'd be upgrading the tuners, would I be devaluing the guitar? It is a 1988 Lowden, from the era when George was involved in production and hand signed the labels. It's also unusual in having a rosewood fingerboard (which I've not seen on a Lowden before) and being hog/spruce (a custom only combination these days on Lowdens).

Any thoughts? Many thanks!

Dan

JoeCharter · #2 01-19-2010, 11:51 AM

I would never do this -- ever. But that's just me...

Yes, you'd certainly mess up with a fine guitar.

Cheers,

Joe

K III · #3 01-19-2010, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeNewbie

I would never do this -- ever. But that's just me...

Yes, you'd certainly mess up with a fine guitar.

Cheers,

Joe

+1. No good idea, unless the srew holes fit.

Bob Womack · #4 01-19-2010, 12:15 PM

That's one upgrade that is done all the time. Probably 75% of Gibson Les Pauls from the '60s and '70s have had Grovers added to replace the stock Klusons. The results are empty screw holes because the screws on each don't line up. Everyone I knew replaced the stock Klusons, that felt cheap, for Grovers. Does it devalue the instrument? A bit. Not a lot. Would I turn down a vintage instrument because it has had a tuner upgrade that left holes? No. All IMHO. However, by way of disclaimer, I never changed out the tuners on my '70s LP for this very reason and now it is worth a little more as a result.

Funny, huh?

Bob

Allman_Fan · #5 01-19-2010, 12:23 PM

Agree 100% on the LP comment.

If you think you might sell the guitar in the future, don't do it.
If you know this one is a keeper, go ahead. (Keep the old ones, of course.)

JoeCharter · #6 01-19-2010, 12:37 PM

I think when you have crappy tuning machines to start with, sure it might be worth considering.

But I wouldn't chop my Lowden to replace fine tuners with other fine tuners I might prefer.

Wally · #7 01-19-2010, 12:48 PM

I've never been one that is concerned with the "devaluing" of a guitar by upgrading tuners. If this were a pre-war Martin in pristine condition it would be one thing but as a player I would consider your tuner replacement a benefit not a detriment. I guess it depends if you own the guitar as a collector's piece of art or as a player. Mine are players

Hack Amatuer · #8 01-19-2010, 01:16 PM

I usually don't go by what others would like, I would rather go by what I think is good, if it means an extra set of holes in the headstock, so be it.

Wade Hampton · #9 01-19-2010, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

I've never been one that is concerned with the "devaluing" of a guitar by upgrading tuners. If this were a pre-war Martin in pristine condition it would be one thing but as a player I would consider your tuner replacement a benefit not a detriment. I guess it depends if you own the guitar as a collector's piece of art or as a player. Mine are players

As someone who's been buying, trading and selling guitars for almost as long as I've been playing (more than thirty years,) I have to say that the cautionary warnings by some who've contributed to this thread really don't match up with my own multiple experiences with this very issue.

Nobo, replacing one brand of tuning gears with another is a very common modification. The old screwholes are easily filled by gluing toothpicks in them with white glue, waiting for the glue to harden overnight, then cutting them flush to the surface with an Exacto knife or razor blade. Then you can apply a bit of finish touchup crayon in the right color to the blond wood of the toothpicks. (These touchup crayons are available at any hardware store.) If you've matched the shades correctly, no casual viewer of the instrument will ever notice.

If you don't feel comfortable doing the work yourself, it's an extremely quick and easy (and thus inexpensive) task for any guitar tech. If you provide the tuners, the chances are is all you'd get charged is the shop minimum.

I've always treated my guitars as players, and while I take very good care of them, if the original gears are sloppy or wearing out, I'll replace them in a heartbeat. Sometimes direct drop-in replacements are available, sometimes they're not.

But, you know, I've never once lost a sale or had to accept less money as a result of having done that.

I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the fact that I make sure the work is done cleanly, whether I do it myself or take it to my repairman. But for the most part, players who are interested in the guitar as a musical instrument and actually plan to get some use out of it don't worry a bit about this.

Now, obviously there are some people who do care, as evidenced by the comments in this thread. But it's never been an issue on ANY occasion when I've decided to sell a guitar where I've put different tuners on it.

So it's up to you. I'd say if you play the guitar quite a bit but the tuners aren't as good as you'd like them to be, change them out. Get the work done by a pro, and save the original gears just in case some future buyer wants them.

But even though I've always made a point of telling any prospective buyer that I've changed out the gears, it's never seemed to have stopped or even slowed any of the deals I've made.

So, as I said at the start of this post, my repeated experiences with this indicate to me that - unless you really do have a hugely valuable collector's piece such as a pre-war Martin - changing the tuners on a modern instrument such as you have won't have any discernible effect on the resale value.

Hope this helps.

Wade Hampton Miller

Aaron Smith · #10 01-19-2010, 03:31 PM

This is why I hate the whole "collector" mentality. Even changes that are an obvious improvement to the instrument potentially devalue it.
I say that it's your guitar- if you don't like the tuning machines, replace them with some you like. It's a small modification that has almost zero risk of damaging the instrument in any meaningful way. If, 20 years from now, some collector of early-vintage Lowdens turns his nose up at it, you can say I Told You So.

JoeCharter · #11 01-19-2010, 03:52 PM

Seriously, I'm not a "collector" or a "re-seller". The guitars that make it into my home stay here for life. I play the hell out of them -- but the scars on my instruments are the result of hundreds of hours of playing, not abuse.

That being said, I don't buy guitars that I'm not happy with. I don't buy guitars that have lousy tuners (not that Schallers are any bad, I own a set and they couldn't be more steady).

The fact that I like to keep my guitars in top shape does not make me a "collector". Similarly, if I'm a "player" it doesn't mean I have to drill holes in my headstock for some marginal improvement (if any at all).

I'm being careful with everything that I own. That's just my personality. I spend a lot of money on my instruments and I want them to be as perfect as they can be.

Martin_Nut · #12 01-19-2010, 03:59 PM

Big fan of Gotoh 510, especially the Delta version. Have three guitars that use them. They are great. Having said that, I find the German Schallers on an '01 Baranik I have to work fine. To me, it's not worth the slight cosmetic "cost" for a slightly nicer tuner. Your Schallers may be lunched, and that's a different story. If they need replacing then I'd probably go to a nice set of Gotohs.

I have a friend who replaced a set of Schallers on a Braz Goodall with some nice 21:1 Gotohs recently. He was not pleased with the cosmetic "eyesore" resulting, but loves the Gotohs none-the-less. It seems the original Schallers on his Goodall left a slight "outline" impression in the finish, which the 510/Delta tuners did not entirely cover-up. So there MIGHT be an issue like that in addition to the screw hole. Easy to tell - just remove a tuner and see if the body of the tuner has left any marks the Gotohs won't cover up. Good luck!

Michael T · #13 01-19-2010, 05:08 PM

It's your guitar, if you feel you've upgraded the tuners and the job was done cleanly treat it as an up grade should you wish to sell it and I would even make it a sales point "with upgraded gotoh tuners" when advertised, maybe even ask for more money. I certainly would want the upgraded tuners instead of thinking you've de-valued the instrument. If there is no unfilled holes treat it as you would an upgraded saddle, if a future owner wants a different tuner he can put them on once it's his, but it is yours now so go for it.

#14 01-19-2010, 05:19 PM

I agree with Wade, except I probably wouldn't even fill in the holes. "Value" is something we place on the instruments ourselves, unless we purchase the guitars just as a monetary investment - my most "valuable" guitar, my Yairi classical, the one I really like, probably wouldn't net $10 at a pawn shop.

ljguitar · #15 01-19-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nobo

...Any thoughts? Many thanks!

Hi Dan…
You won't devalue it more than the value of the set of tuners. Just keep the old ones, and swap them out if/when you sell it, and have a tech/luthier plug/fill the holes so they don't show.

My Olson is on it's 3rd set in 17 years, and I'm thinking it probably didn't hurt the value. It would not be even a small consideration as to price were I to decide to sell it (and no, I'm not thinking of selling it).