Guitar Lessons Question: Learning Scales

[frybaby]

Dear Forum Folks,

Have heard many times, in different formats, the importance of learning scales.

In fact just recently in a CD on Jazz Lesson by Jimmy Burno, he recommended learning the major scale in several positions.
Stating, if he was to give private lessons he would begin by having the student work for first several weeks or so, learning the major scale in several scale fingerings over the whole fret board.

This leads me to my question, namely, when recommendation is made to learn the scales, Is it being suggested to learn not just the fingering, but also the actual note that are being played.

I have been practicing scale fingerings, and while now, and in doing so, I am counting off the scale degree (example: 12345671) as I play.
This has helped me to learn the “string to fret “ relationship between the 1 and the 3, and the 1 and the 5, and between the octaves., which helps greatly chord construction, but to return to my question - I am curious; when teachers recommend learning scale positions, do they mean in addition to the fingering , also learning the actual note that is being played.

Much obliged for any comments.
Regards

Jack

[gschaps]

Peter Huttlinger, in his "A Guitarist's Guide to Better Practicing", recommends reciting the notes when practicing scales.

[Jeff M]

Forget scales.
At least, don't make them the focal point of your playing.

You going to be improvising much? If not, don't worry about them.
If you are, spend some time with them..but don't obsess about them.
Scales aren't music.
Learn music.

You planning on playing any altered tunings? There go your scales.
But don't worry. They are easily picked up again in new tunings.

Yes, learning the notes is very useful.
Easiest way I know is;

Originally Posted by gschaps

Peter Huttlinger, in his "A Guitarist's Guide to Better Practicing", recommends reciting the notes when practicing scales.

Yep.
(Actually, I think Pete recommends playing the chromatic scale when doing this.)

Best books out there for this kind of stuff;
Fretboard Logic;
http://www.amazon.com/Fretboard-Logi...9886128&sr=1-1

The Skeptical Guitarist series...(Music Principles);
http://www.skepticalguitarist.com/

Both help you see WHY scales fall the way they do in standard tuning on the guitar...the logic behind how chords are formed.

[Jeff M]

Here you go.
There are more scales out there to learn besides the major and minor scales.
This site allows you to pick what scale you wish to learn and shows you where it falls on the keyboard.
Should keep you busy for awhile.
http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/gui...t&t=0&choice=2

[frybaby]

Gentlemen, thank you,

For the record, I got the Jimmy Burno Jazz Lesson CD from Netflix. My first exposure to his playing.

He is quite amazing.

The CD was over a bit my head in quite and way beyond my skill level, but I did pick up a few good pointers, also some interesting stuff about picking technique.

As mentioned previously however he stresses learning the scales, especially for improvising and for speed practice technique.

He is plenty fast, that for sure.

He breaks thing down to a very simple level, for the more experienced player (Jazz in particular) its well worth the time.

Even for non Jazz players the introduction to the tape where he does some jamming, is quite impressive and inspiring.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by frybaby

Gentlemen, thank you,

For the record, I got the Jimmy Burno Jazz Lesson CD from Netflix. My first exposure to his playing.

He is quite amazing.

The CD was over a bit my head in quite and way beyond my skill level, but I did pick up a few good pointers, also some interesting stuff about picking technique.

As mentioned previously however he stresses learning the scales, especially for improvising and for speed practice technique.

He is plenty fast, that for sure.

He breaks thing down to a very simple level, for the more experienced player (Jazz in particular) its well worth the time.

Even for non Jazz players the introduction to the tape where he does some jamming, is quite impressive and inspiring.

LOTS of great players out there, lots of different suggestions about how to learn to play guitar.
Just need to find what path works best for you.
One of my instructors played it all...mainly Jazz.
Studied under some very famous jazz guitarists. Joe Pass is the one that stands out in my mind.
He touched on scales in his lessons..but they were just a small part of what he did.

[trion12]

The importance of learning scales cannot be answered without understanding your musical goals. For me they were very important to learn given that my goal was to be a jazz musician. With a differenet goal maybe they wouldn't have mattered so much.

It's a hard question to answer because the question of learning scales is intertwined with learning to read and learning theory/harmony.

Do you want to be able to improvise? Then yes, scales are important to learn.
Do you want to be able to read music? Then yes, scales are important to learn.
Do you want to know where all the notes are on the guitar and be able to use them? Then yes, scales are important to learn.
Do you want to learn how harmony works and be able to use it? Then yes, scales are important to learn.
Do you want to be able to substitute chords from what is written? Then yes, scales are important to learn. (Psst . . . I let you in on a little secret . . . chords and scales are kind of the same thing . . .)

Aaron

[Howard Klepper]

If you want to play jazz, IMO the best book for learning scales (and a lot of other stuff) is Wm Leavitt's course. He teaches stretch fingering so you can play chromatically in every position. 7 basic positions for each of the 11 major scales, but once you get the system mastered (I haven't), you can play any scale in any position.

90+% of jazz is played in major keys. Lots of chromatic tones get added between the scale tones, but you are still basically playing major scales. After you learn the major scales in all keys in 7 positions you can worry about other scales; if you add in the melodic minor for minor keys, you have the scales you need for 99+% of jazz tunes.

It's good to know every note name on the board without thinking about it, and the names of the notes in all the keys (likewise without thinking about it). But thinking in scale degrees and intervals as you practice, as you are doing, is a good thing to do. Many jazz players say they forget about note names and just think in terms of intervals.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by frybaby

...This leads me to my question, namely, when recommendation is made to learn the scales, Is it being suggested to learn not just the fingering, but also the actual note that are being played.

Hi Jack...
As a teacher, I think by number (scale degree) and by name, in both open position (first position) and then in positions up the neck.

And then as patterns as well as note name and scale degree.

I find myself playing with players who know scale degree, and others who know note names, and still others who just play patterns. If I speak all three 'dialects' I can communicate with them all more quickly without expecting them to conform to what I know.

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by Jeff M

Forget scales.
At least, don't make them the focal point of your playing.

You going to be improvising much? If not, don't worry about them.
If you are, spend some time with them..but don't obsess about them.
Scales aren't music.
Learn music
.

Amen.
As someone that improvises for a living, I don't think in terms of scales very much at all. And for the record. Jimmy Bruno's newer teaching material is pretty anti-scale. That said I do think it’s a good idea to learn your scales, understand them, etc..But the over emphisis of that stuff can be a sand trap that players get stuck in for years.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Jeff M

Forget scales.
At least, don't make them the focal point of your playing.

Hi Jeff-n-others...
It's interesting to me that so many players who really are familiar with the construction, playing and implementation of scales down-play their importance so much.

From my perspective, the relationship of scales and arpeggios to chords and chord progressions, are equivalent to the alphabet with spoken and written language. While we don't spell out every word we speak, most of us can spell most of the regular vocabulary we use. And knowledge of scales and scale degree facilitates greater and speedier communication among groups of cooperating musicians.

Scales are very helpful to know intimately. They are the foundation for chords, which are the building material of progressions and songs.

While I'd agree we shouldn't make scales the focal point of all our playing, I still believe scale work and knowledge is essential foundational music-making material. If we miss it, and want to improve, we will likely end up revisiting it at some time in the future.

Almost every decent player who shows up in my teaching suite because of hitting the wall and wanting to progress further is deficient in scale and chord knowledge...so I refuse to demote their importance to the making and structure of music.

[trion12]

Originally Posted by min7b5

Amen.
As someone that improvises for a living, I don't think in terms of scales very much at all. And for the record. Jimmy Bruno's newer teaching material is pretty anti-scale. That said I do think it’s a good idea to learn your scales, understand them, etc..But the over emphisis of that stuff can be a sand trap that players get stuck in for years.

Absolutely agree Eric.
When playing, you play sounds and shades not scales, but to ingrain those sounds or "colour sets" (which is how I think of scales) in your head, learning and practicing scales is a tried and true method.
For me, having practiced scales at earlier points in my life, it was a way to learn and ingrain different kinds of colour sets, with a particular scale providing the resource set which makes available a particular colour set.
Obviously at a certain point it becomes unconscious and you hear the colour set as a general shade in your head and just play that shade without thinking about how, but for getting comfortable with new colour sets and finding them on the instrument, practicing the scale which provides that colour is a good way to ingrain it in your head and under your fingers.

Aaron

[trion12]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

If you want to play jazz, IMO the best book for learning scales (and a lot of other stuff) is Wm Leavitt's course. He teaches stretch fingering so you can play chromatically in every position. 7 basic positions for each of the 11 major scales, but once you get the system mastered (I haven't), you can play any scale in any position.

Hi Howard.
Yeah, the Berklee books are kind of the standard for non-classical pedagogy aren't they . . .
I wouldn't however restrict them to wanting to learn jazz. They are a good generic way to learn your way all around the instrument for any kind of music and how you apply the fundamental skills of those books could be applied to pretty much any kind of music don't you think?.

Aaron

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

...
Scales are very helpful to know intimately. They are the foundation for chords....

That reminds of a point I always like to make to students: that scales are actually much much more beneficial to chord playing, and studying chords is the secret to playing single note lines -sort of backwards of what many people are taught, by that my story and I’m sticking to it

[brad4d8]

Originally Posted by frybaby

In fact just recently in a CD on Jazz Lesson by Jimmy Burno, he recommended learning the major scale in several positions.
Stating, if he was to give private lessons he would begin by having the student work for first several weeks or so, learning the major scale in several scale fingerings over the whole fret board.Jack

Yes, he does stress, I think six, different patterns for the major scale. Then he goes on to explain how they fit into the different modes. That is, if you are real familiar with a major scale pattern, just start that pattern on the second step of the scale and you have the Dorian mode. Simplified of course, but that's the starting point of his approach. Oh, and as somebody mentioned, speed (not my cup of tea).
Brad