Non-invasive acoustic pickup not prone to feedback

[tadol]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I am curious to hear his latest V3 pickup. I wonder why James went to a single transducer vs. the three transducers under the bridge plate? It would be interesting to compare his V2 Ultra Tonic to the new V3 model.

James can surely pipe in with more detail, but the main difference is ease of installation, gluing in 2 pieces rather than 4. I think there are still the same transducers, but by putting them on a single plate, it reduces the number of hands one needs to do an installation. I think he may have done a minor tweak on the circuit board as well, since it has an updated version no., but I think it was more for manufacturing reasons, plus some potential hardware options in the future, for other applications. Just as the Tonedexter is an amazing piece of hardware for other instruments, hopefully there will be UltraTonic pickups for others as well. He’s been adversely affected by the CV-19 issue (haven’t we all?) but based on his website, it looks like his parts suppliers have started shipping, and we will see a lot of the V3s being installed soon - personally, I can’t wait, as I have a couple other guitars I would love to yank the batteries out of and get these installed on - then again, I’m not sure when I’ll next be able to play out, so it may not be that big a rush -

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by guitarman68

Dazzo, Schatten HFN, UltraTonic - all wonderful und superior to a K&K in terms of feedback. Feedback heavily depends on proper monitoring, so maybe stay away from floor wedges ? I use a QSC K8.2 on a stand. Couldn't be happier.

How are those pickups more feedback resistant when compared to the K&K? Doesn’t really make sense other than the Ultra Tonic.

[FiggyPudding18]

One option I am looking at right now is a magnetic soundhole pickup with a mic blend like either a Fishman Rare Earth Blend or Seymour Duncan SA-6 Mag Mic.

I like the idea that the soundhole pickups tend to be feedback resistant (unless of course you put the mic all the way up, I'm assuming you can still go 100% magnetic sound and be fine in terms of feedback) and I think the sound is pretty good. It seems like it is not very invasive, and I can't imagine these types of pickups affecting unplugged sound....

Please correct me if I am way off here!

[guitarman68]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

How are those pickups more feedback resistant when compared to the K&K? Doesn’t really make sense other than the Ultra Tonic.

I have them all in different guitars and did some extensive A/B - testing once: Same venue, same monitor placement, HPF activated on the preamp ... The K&K always tended to feedback in the lower mids where Dazzo, Schatten and UltraTonic stayed far away from feedback. A graphic analyzer will show that the Schatten, Dazzo, UltraTonic are more flat response than the K&K.
The Schatten HFN is not as bass or lower midrange heavy than the K&K. The UltraTonic is a clever design to avoid feedback. The Dazzo really needs proper installation, then IMO is the most natural PU I use - and less prone to feedback than K&K.
But it heavily depends on the guitar as well: With Collings guitars (even dreads) the K&K always worked fine - less prone to feedback. With a Martin D28 (had an Authentic D28 once) my experience was totally different. Even in my small bodied vintage 017 the sound still is boxy (but Tonedexter does wonders) with a K&K, so I removed the middle element, same with my Guild F412 12-string.

By the way: Home quarantine gives us some time, so I will upload a video showing six different guitars with different pickups, comparing the raw PU sound with the TD magic and a pure miked sound. Hope to finish it tomorrow.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I am curious to hear his latest V3 pickup. I wonder why James went to a single transducer vs. the three transducers under the bridge plate? It would be interesting to compare his V2 Ultra Tonic to the new V3 model.

In a very few guitars, the three heads of a K&K/JJB can be sufficiently out of phase at some higher frequencies to not sound quite as good as a single transducer when presented with a less than optimal input impedance. A single transducer eliminates that problem. It also provides a larger surface area which lowers the pickup output impedance and gives him the flexibility to make other optimizations that I suspect he discovered through experimentation.

Disc piezo elements are catalog items. This new design is likely more expensive to get custom manufactured and must have sounded quite a bit better to be worth the cost.

Aside from still requiring cyanoacrylate glue, it is the minimum you could put in a guitar and cleverly allows a SBT to function at high stage volume. I'm looking forward to hearing how people like it as more are installed by AGF'ers.

My solution to stage volume and SBTs was to eliminate floor monitors.

[meb]

+1 to comments by staphenT. The Blackstack is great; the Black Angel is
an even smaller cheaper alternative. OP, the SD Mag-Mic uses a
Velcro battery bag mounted inside the guitar; I cannot think of anything more
invasive than that. I compared the BlackStack to the Rare Earth HB, and
the BS was easily better and had more output than the active RE. I would bet
on the BS in a comparison with the RE Blend and without the feedback worries
of dealing with a mic.

I have had problems removing a K&K system. imo, the feedback busting
soundhole plugs destroy you plugged in sound if that matters to you.

btw, I currently use the Sunrise and BlackStack.

Good luck.

[FiggyPudding18]

Originally Posted by meb

OP, the SD Mag-Mic uses a
Velcro battery bag mounted inside the guitar; I cannot think of anything more
invasive than that. I compared the BlackStack to the Rare Earth HB, and
the BS was easily better and had more output than the active RE.

Interesting, did not think about the battery bag--does the Rare Earth have that as well?

My concern with the passive soundhole pickups are they sound sort of like electric guitars. Do you find this to be the case?

Originally Posted by meb

I would bet on the BS in a comparison with the RE Blend and without the feedback worries of dealing with a mic.

Couldn't I just roll the mic back and use 100% magnetic sound to resolve this problem?

Thanks for your insight!

[FiggyPudding18]

Also, does anyone have any insight in regards to which would affect unplugged acoustic tone less, soundhole pickup or something like lr baggs anthem?

[Methos1979]

Originally Posted by FiggyPudding18

Any insight into whether or not the magnetic pickups affect unplugged tone when left in?

In my experience leaving a magnetic pickup in doesn't affect unplugged tone at all, especially if it's a lightweight one. I used to use a Schertler Magnetico AG-6 with the S-MIC-M which was great for being very lightweight with a small footprint that was easy to install and remove since it uses thumbwheels inside instead of a screwdriver or allen wrench. It sounded really good with the little condenser mic that you could blend in.

It also can be installed through the bottom jack if you drill it out or there is an external cable accessory you can drape out the soundhole if you don't want to modify your guitar. It's active so it has great output and runs for 170 hours on a single CR2032 battery. The only reason I switched over to a Dimarzio Black Angel was because I wanted a passive system since I rarely play that guitar plugged in. I have Cole Clark guitars for that.

I'm getting ready to throw my AG-6 up on Reverb if you're interested. I'll send you a PM.

[PANDAPANDELO]

Talking about Mag Pickups, if natural tone is important, the LR Baggs M80 could be a good choice. Way more natural than the others Mag Pickups I've tested, but a little more prone to feedback.

[meb]

The Rare Earth & RE Blend use a CR2032, not 9v. I have not tried the RE
Blend; so I really cannot comment on sound or fb issues. The RE had harsh
electric trebles vs the BS.

I used the M80 for a while. I prefer the
Black Angel, Schertler AG-6, Blackstack and Sunrise all over the M80.
The M80 seemed cloudy...less clean & clear by comparison. Noledog
uses an M80 and always gets great sound from it; I am sure others do too.
ymmv.

With a passive, count on getting a good preamp to go with it.
If you want active, Methos1979's AG-6/S-mic may be perfect for you.

Good luck.

[stephenT]

The Black Angel (I've owned a couple, the Black and the tortoise colored) is cheaper and sounds nice. But to my ear not in the same league as the Sunrise and Blackstack in sound.

Originally Posted by meb

+1 to comments by staphenT. The Blackstack is great; the Black Angel is an even smaller cheaper alternative.

[FiggyPudding18]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWW0E9_DiA

REB sounds phenomenal here to my ear.

[James May]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I am curious to hear his latest V3 pickup. I wonder why James went to a single transducer vs. the three transducers under the bridge plate? It would be interesting to compare his V2 Ultra Tonic to the new V3 model.

Happy to provide details about this. (Epecially while I wait on hold trying to get through to an institution that is swamped with calls. Such is the norm these days...)

The V3 design was motivated by the following:

• Easier and simpler installation - 2 elements instead of 5, easier alignment
• More transducer surface area gives lower impedance and the ability to support the passive sound-hole volume control without tonal compromise
• Input from several high volume guitar companies who love the sound and passive nature, and are very interested in incorporating the Ultra Tonic into their production models.

It was critical that the new V3 design not sound different than the V2 design. To ensure that is the case, I did extensive lab measurement tests, such as installing V2, running and recording measurement sweeps with the network analyzer, then yanking the V2 out and reinstalling V3 and remeasuring, making sure there were no significant differences. I also did a lot of recorded listening tests, V2 then V3 in the same instrument.

I am convinced there is no noticeable difference in sound between the two versions. The new V3 is expected to begin shipping later this week.

[varmonter]

Ive tried a few mag sh pickups.
My favorite is the baggs m80 currently.
I gave up on piezo pickups a long time ago. great in your bedroom. Terrible at
any loud gig volume.
Maybe im not as sensitive or just not
that much of a purist. But ive never noticed any perceivable difference in my
unplugged tone using these. I have a sunrise mag pup and their pretty old school hand wound bricks of a sh pup.
And i cant hear any difference in the unplugged sound even with the sunrise
installed.