My quest for the best acoustic amplified sound

[Bart1981]

WARNING: This is a very long story about my quest for the best amplified acoustic tone. It spans about 20 years. If you're just looking for a short answer to "Should I buy a K&K or not?" or "Is Tonedexter really worth it?", search some other topics.

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Hi everyone!

After years and years of lurking this forum - for which I thank you all - today I find it's the day to give something back to you. Because: I found my perfect acoustic amplified sound!

Let me give you a backstory: first of all, I'm a less than average steelstring acoustic guitar player. I mostly play some chords, some fills, and some fingerpicking. And I love to sing along. Isn't that what the acoustic guitar was invented for? I started way too late playing guitar. Around my 20ies (almost 40 now). So, my techniques and basic skills are way behind of what I would have learned if I started playing guitar as a kid.

Anyway, I have a very good pair of ears. I know how instruments should sound like and I know what I want to hear. As you all might agree, the best acoustic guitar sound is the sound coming from ... the unamplified guitar when playing on the couch. Yes. And that's what I do mostly.

But on the occasion I was asked to perfom, when I plugged in ... it sounded like hell. And that made me insecure, because the very warm blanket of sound I was used to sing along when sitting on the couch... it was gone when I plugged in. It was a wall of harshness, unblended metal, squeaky horror that got to my ears which made me very unconfident when performing.

My first guitar was a Washburn D10 with a passive pickup. I don't even want to talk about that plugged in sound. The guitar itself wasn't too bad actually. But I bought a Yamaha APX5A shortly after (which I still own btw) which gave me a sort-of balanced live sound (but no couch-pleasure at all). And at that time (after 2 years of playing) I was satisfied with its plugged in sound. But as my skills didn't really improve, my ears and expectations did. The thin quacky Yahama pickup was not what I wanted. So I bought a Taylor 114CE with the (in)famous Expression System. For several years I was very happy with that. It was balanced and with some EQ it even sounded guitar-ish when plugged in. Plus it picked up the dynamics of my playing really well. But... again my ears and expectations did move on. And the magnetic tone of the Taylor ES wasn't good enough anymore.

And then I was in the fortunate position to buy a Larrivee OM. I always was looking for a smaller body guitar since I am not tall. And after months of investigation (including this forum) I was convinced: a Larrivee OM will fit my needs... and will be way too expensive for a lousy guitar player like me. So I bought one. Second hand ;-) The OM-5E. With a LR Baggs Stagepro dual-source pickup installed. "This will be my best plugged sound ever", I reckoned.

No.

Let me be clear: the guitar itself was magic. It even made me a better guitar player. The tone, the subtlety, the balance, the dynamics, and the looks. Woaw, I will always own a Larrivee from now on. Larrivee has mastered the OM body-size and I will never go without one. This is not an endorsed post. This is my true believe since I touched that Larrivee.

But.

The amplified tone, with the LR Baggs Stagepro dual-source, never fitted my ears. You can blend that pickup: from full piezo to full mic (except for the lowest frequencies). Nothing worked for me: the full piezo was as harsh as the cheapest piezos I played. The full mic was very muddy. And the blend... it was the worst of both worlds. Plus the piezo was unbalanced as well. Low E way too loud. I know a good luthier can fix this: I tried 3 of them. It never was fixed completely. And then there was huge amount of hiss I got from this pickup.

So.

With this very unsatisfying experience, I got in contact with LR Baggs. They agreed this was not normal. And they sent me a complete new Stagepro pickup. For free. So, I want to emphasize that LR Baggs has the best customer service in the world I've ever experienced. Unfortunately, it didn't fix my problems. Still harsh when full piezo, still muddy when full-mic. And still unbalanced (okay, this really must have been a guitar/saddle problem which luthies didn't get resolved).

Anyway.

I decided it was time for rigorous action. So I sold both my Larrivee OM5E and the Taylor 114CE. And I thought it was time to start bottom up: buy the guitar(s) I like for their natural sound and amplify them in the right way with the best pickup. I ended up with buying a Larrivee OM-40 (love it, more low-end than the 03 and 05 due to the different bracing) and an Eastman E1-OM (for campfire usage, because I don't want my Larrivee to end up in flames).

Oh, wait I minute. Did I tell you already I bought several pedals to improve my amplified tone with the guitars I owned earlier? Fishman Aura Sixteen, Fishman Tonedeq, Behringer ADI21. But nothing really spectaculair. It confirmed my believe that a good acoustic amplified tone starts with a good guitar and pickup.

And after years of lurking this forum I had heard of the K&K Pure Mini. A lot. But I was skeptical for a long time: how can such basic, passive and pretty cheap pickup sound so great. I literally watched hours and hours of YouTube reviews which compared the K&K to almost anything else: Anthem, Lyric, Fishman and the Schatten HFN. To be honest: K&K and Schatten were on my shortlist. Or should I say Aaron Short-list. (Thank you Aaron! Your channel is amazing and helped me a lot!). And then I decided for the K&K because of the more steady experiences in "the world" and the higher output.

And now... I'll skip to the interesting part of this post: I installed the K&K in the Eastman E1-OM myself and plugged into an impedance matched pre-amp. Just the pickup, no eq or anything else. Wow. I was blown away. It was a warm, woody and balanced tone that I never heard coming from an unprocessed pickup. It was above my expectations. With my limited playing capabilities I couldn't wish for more at that moment. This was the best acoustic amplified sound I heard. Ofcourse many people say it's bass-heavy. I wouldn't say that. Might be the OM sized guitar, or just my preference. Anyway, nothing some EQ can't fix. This is the sound I want. And the sound I want to improve.

*Drum roll.* And then someone mentioned Tonedexter.

Ofcourse I knew about imaging, I even tried the Aura Sixteen. And I heard about the Baggs equivalent of Tonexter... Voiceprint? I don't have an iPhone. Tonedexter it was for me. Got one, second hand again. Lucky me.

I bought the Slate ML2 mic to connect to Tonedexter. And then the training began. Is training difficult? No it is not. Not at all. Is mic positiong difficult? Yes it is. It is a lot. My first 5 of 6 trained Wavemaps were awful. Hollow, muddy, even worse than the prerecorded Aura Sixteen images. Then I decided to ignore some of the mic position advices in the Tonedexter manual. I put the Slate mic between the 12 and 14th fret, the "neck joint" position in the manual, but instead of setting it 10-15" away, I tried 3-6". Result? GREAT! A much tighter tone, less ambience.
And now.... the conclusion. I A/B'ed various Tonedexter settings and mic positions. I think that's everyone's challenge. But now, when I'm auditioning my TD against the mic'ed or unprocessed sound.... I don't want anything else than the TD Wavemap around 70% blend, converting the (already fanastisc) K&K pickup into an amplified sound of my guitar as how it sounds on the couch, only louder.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by Bart1981

Then I decided to ignore some of the mic position advices in the Tonedexter manual. I put the Slate mic between the 12 and 14th fret, the "neck joint" position in the manual, but instead of setting it 10-15" away, I tried 3-6". Result? GREAT! A much tighter tone, less ambience.

Thanks! I'm gonna have to try mic'ing closer when training. I always wondered why the recommended mic'ing distances were so large, compared to the distance one would normally use when mic'ing a guitar.

[Br1ck]

I'm not searching for the Holy Grail. I'm wanting very satisfying with no hassle. I've found it with Dazzo pickups and SunnAudio pre amps. Like my analogue stereo quest where I found the phono cartridge to be paramount, starting at the source is the key. Get a pickup that matches the natural character of your guitar is the ticket. Yes, you can get something decent with EQ. My audio stereo chain has no EQ. My guitar chain has some, but is never used. I don't think about it now. If I buy a guitar, it goes straight to Teddy Randazzo. If it already has pickups, it still goes to Teddy Randazzo. The only exception I can conceive of would be a band with a drummer, then I'd get a Dazzo, a magnetic pickup and a SunnAudio onboard Blender DI, or I'd buy a Cole Clark.

[varmonter]

Ive given up on the holy grail
chasing. The sound i get live
is good actually great.
I hear things id like to change
but the audience for the
most part doesnt know
or doesnt care to know the
pains we go thru for sound.
I am my own worse sound
critic. And what i have is good enough.. Will i change it??
More than likely. Thats the
nature of things .

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by varmonter

Ive given up on the holy grail
chasing. The sound i get live
is good actually great.
I hear things id like to change
but the audience for the
most part doesnt know
or doesnt care to know the
pains we go thru for sound.
I am my own worse sound
critic. And what i have is good enough.. Will i change it??
More than likely. Thats the
nature of things .

Badda Bing, Badda Boom!--The Above!

[Marty C]

Thanks Bart1981! Probably mirrors a lot our our experiences. I know I went down a similar path. I bought a new Martin D-16 and the dealer suggested a K & K. He put it in and I played with it for several years. Mostly in church. But just didn’t like the sound. I tried every preamp on the market. There were no IR pedals at that time. I finally decide to remove the K & K and try something else.

I thought it was odd when I removed the pickup, that the two outside disk were larger than the middle. As it turns out, that K and K was designed for a 12 string. That particular pickup was designed to accentuate the bass and mid tones, which was my main issues.

Regardless, I switched to LR Baggs M1A, then LR Baggs Anthem SL, then Fishman element (dual source). More preamps. Thought maybe it was just that guitar.

Worked with Baggs service guy, Caleb, who is great by the way, on the Anthem SL. Turns out the UST was bad so they fixed this, I reinstalled and it was much better. But still not what I was looking for. So I ventured down the IR path. Some improvement, but could never get what I wanted and it was getting way too complicated.

I finally gave up and bought a Taylor 814, which I am very happy with.

Getting ready to sell the Martin, but decided, why not put the RIGHT K & K in and give it one last try. Dang, that was easy. Sounds so much better. And simple. No battery, not much EQ needed and sounds pretty good through any amp or speaker I have. The guitar even sounds better unplugged, without the UST’s I had in it.

Will probably venture down the IR further with a Tone dexter, but for now, I am pretty happy. I took the last trial on the K & K since so many people here spoke so highly of it. Like you Bart1981, I want to thank all you guys for sharing your experiences. Otherwise, I would have missed out on my best plugged in sound. Now I spend more time playing and not twiddling knobs!

[EZYPIKINS]

The best plugged in tone I've used on a live stage with floor monitors is the Fishman Aura Pro that came installed in my Gibson J-185.

Have been looking for something to put in my Guild. Have a friend who is trying to convince me on the K&K.

I know he uses in ear monitors. Would like to try one with my set up.

Not gonna glue anything in till I know.

[buzzardwhiskey]

The OP's journey is not unlike my own, though my Larrivee was a parlor.

I was an early adopter of the Tonedexter, and I still believe it changed the landscape, but after years of use I've moved away again and haven't looked back.

For me, the EQ'd K&K is more organic and enjoyable. I'm using a Felix. If the opportunity (nice venue and unharried sound guy) should present itself, I'll blend in a guitar mic, but so far I'm using the second channel for a vocal mic (huge plug for the DPA 2028).

Good luck!

[Petty1818]

If I could listen to my guitar from the perspective of the audience, I would be all set for pickups. It's the sound on stage and the feel that I struggle with. Let me explain..

The best sound I ever got with my Taylor was with a Matrix/Spectrum Aura set up. I used this for years and was never fully satisfied as it felt a bit thin and bright on stage. I once let another musician use my guitar for a few songs and I went to sit out front. I couldn't believe how amazing my Taylor sounded and that was with a random image that didn't even match the body/tone woods. It's that tone that has made me come back to the Aura from time to time.

I also got amazing tones out front with the Lr Baggs Lyric. Through the monitors on stage, it sounded thin. People also complimented my Amulet tones but whenever I listen back to recordings done out front, it always sounds a bit too much like a piezo. The Anthem I remember always sounding like a hollow/middy mess.

I am kind of down to installing a Dazzo and leaving the Matrix in my guitar. The Dazzo can be my primary pickup and the Matrix/Aura can be for louder stages.

[Crowder]

My Collings OM1-ESS has the K&K Trinity installed.

My quick-and-dirty open mic setup is just the Trinity beltpack with about twice as much pickup as mic dialed in.

I just got a Tonedexter and that's likely to be my new go-to for gigs where I'm doing a longer set.

With the Trinity you can plug in a mono guitar cable and it just sends the piezo down the cable. Works great with the Tonedexter.

[Methos1979]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

I'm not searching for the Holy Grail. I'm wanting very satisfying with no hassle. I've found it with Dazzo pickups and SunnAudio pre amps. Like my analogue stereo quest where I found the phono cartridge to be paramount, starting at the source is the key. Get a pickup that matches the natural character of your guitar is the ticket. Yes, you can get something decent with EQ. My audio stereo chain has no EQ. My guitar chain has some, but is never used. I don't think about it now. If I buy a guitar, it goes straight to Teddy Randazzo. If it already has pickups, it still goes to Teddy Randazzo. The only exception I can conceive of would be a band with a drummer, then I'd get a Dazzo, a magnetic pickup and a SunnAudio onboard Blender DI, or I'd buy a Cole Clark.

First and foremost, welcome to the forum Bart1981, even though you've been 'lurking here for years and years'! Great first post. Glad you made it in the amplification forum!

I'm glad you found your solution. Many Tonedexter fans here. I was reading Br1ck's post above and saying in my head (like I do reading any and all posts about guitar pickups in this forum) "Cole Clark"... "Get a Cole Clark"... So when I got to the end it made me laugh out loud!

After years of searching for great amplified tone I tried a Cole Clark and realized that is what I was what I had been searching for all these years. But I also have a couple other guitars that aren't Cole Clarks and I also want great amplified tone out of them so I'm always looking for what's new and great out there.

I have a Froggy Bottom that as of yet has no pickup installed. In my experience the only pickups that sound really good are those that are multi-source. I'm tentative about systems like Dazzo, Trance, and Barbera that are lauded and pricey yet still single source. So I have yet to try anything in the Frog.

I've been thinking of giving the Ultra Tonic ver. 3 a try as I did like the K&K for it's passive, lightweight simplicity but although I've seen a few people chime in about it, it's still fairly new and I'm also not a big fan of having to string it up to set the dip switches then unstring to install the internals.

But at least its a move in the right direction. If it does indeed perform as good as the K&K while removing the things that the K&K did not do well (muddy, tubby, bassy and feedback prone) then it might just be the ticket. Time will tell. it would nice to see a redesign where the dip switches are re-engineered as a potentiometer or something you could tweak on the fly without the need to restring.

Despite its popularity, I have no interest in the Tonedexter. I'm all about the utmost in simplicity with minimal gear between guitar and amp. And anything that does come between the two must be able to run on battery, like the amp does. Something will come along at some point that will finally be perfect. In the meantime, I've still got the Cole Clark for the very best in amplified tone.

[rmp]

I've had the same experience with Tonedexter training. I think it really depends on the mic.

I'm using an Audio Technica Small condenser mic.

The best results was front of the sound hole, about 6" from the strings. and this was on 4 different acoustics. All the others sounded off, and just nothing like the ones trained off the sound hole

[tadol]

Originally Posted by Methos1979

I've been thinking of giving the Ultra Tonic ver. 3 a try as I did like the K&K for it's passive, lightweight simplicity but although I've seen a few people chime in about it, it's still fairly new and I'm also not a big fan of having to string it up to set the dip switches then unstring to install the internals.

But at least its a move in the right direction. If it does indeed perform as good as the K&K while removing the things that the K&K did not do well (muddy, tubby, bassy and feedback prone) then it might just be the ticket. Time will tell. it would nice to see a redesign where the dip switches are re-engineered as a potentiometer or something you could tweak on the fly without the need to restring.

I think you’re misunderstanding the point of the switches - they are not there to adjust anything that might change (from venue to venue, or amp to amp) they are there to tune the pickup to your specific guitar, which isn’t very difficult, and then - you’re done! You will never have to think about it again - unless you shave the braces, sand down the bridge, drill holes in the sides, or take some other extreme action that would change the resonant response of the body of the guitar - all of which I would suggest you do Before installing the pickup -

Before I put a couple in, I shared those thoughts - but since I have them installed and tweaked, I haven’t thought about those switches at all -

[PANDAPANDELO]

I really am curious about the TD. The thing about it is that some reviews Sound awesome, while others sound really bad to my ears (hollow, distant).

Here's an example of a great TD sound:

https://youtu.be/jAyV63gB9JU

The fact that I live in Brazil and here we don't have TD tô audition keeps me curious, but without courage to import a unity.

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by PANDAPANDELO

I really am curious about the TD. The thing about it is that some reviews Sound awesome, while others sound really bad to my ears (hollow, distant).

I believe everyone who owns a ToneDexter has created those 'hollow' or 'phasey' wavemaps at some point.
Whenever it happens to me, I just start over.

It only takes 30-40 seconds to create a wavemap with the newest firmware.

I used to get these 'bogus' wavemaps more often when I was first using ToneDexter.
I suspect I was doing something like moving during the training, or using a poor microphone placement.

I understand that it is difficult to feel confident about something that is difficult to procure in Brazil.
I think you can safely discount those hollow-sounding wavemaps as not being representative of most ToneDexter results.