"Best" steel string CF guitar for amplified fingerpicker (at higher volumes)

dan-electro · #1 10-05-2023, 08:13 AM

First AGF post! Longtime lurker, but need some help if you're willing!

I'm a fingerstyle player that gigs with a drummer, often at higher volumes. I'm interested in a CF guitar as my Godin multiac (Lyric system) and Ovation (UST) really aren't sounding great at high volumes. The Godin (a nylon) sounds lovely for solo gigs but just gets lost in the mix live w/ other players. And the Ovation's UST is just brittle and bleh (to be fair, it's a 40 year old guitar!). With some FOH tweaking / my Venue DI, both guitars are serviceable, but I'm really unhappy with the amplified tones on both guitars with my drummer.

Been looking at the steel string Emerald X20, RainSong APSE, RainSong WE Nashville LE2, maybe a Mac. Sable... I'm attracted to the "all-weather" qualities of CF and the tuning stability.

I know Emerald offers several different pickup configurations. From what I've gathered online, videos, and from the forum, I thought the K&K and graph tech ghost seemed like a good idea... Is this markedly different / much better than something like a Baggs Anthem system? I think Emerald offered the Anthem at one time but doesn't anymore? Not sure if that is b/c they don't gibe well with those guitars?

Kevin at Emerald actually told me he likes the Element system best in the X20. In theory, I like the simplicity of a system like that, but I'm worried that it will make a 3K guitar sound like a $179 UST, if that makes sense...

Am I doomed to just have mediocre amplified tone from any of these guitars with a need to go down the pedal path (bodyrez, tonedexter, aura, etc.?) to compensate? I realize that a good mic would bring out the acoustic qualities of these, but I sing/move around on stage and feedback can be an issue with a hot mic out front.

And for low action fingerpicking, any preference of X20 vs. RainSong? I know the necks are very different on these... I'd probably lean in the direction of the "fast" N1 neck on the RS guitars as I need something that won't wear me out after 3 hours of playing.

Thanks so much in advance!!!
Dan in Asheville

PeterM · #2 10-05-2023, 08:42 AM

IMHO...the APSE

JackDaniel · #3 10-05-2023, 08:56 AM

I thought the element sounded terrible. I haven't met a piezo that I loved though.
The anthem sounds pretty good.
The ghost sounds... Like piezo.
Haven't tried k&k but folks seem to like it a lot.

I use a fender acoustasonic for stage and like that quite a bit. Not cf, I know, but definitely not traditional.

Earl49 · #4 10-05-2023, 08:57 AM

Welcome Dan! You are considering some fine CF guitars. For me the Rainsong WS-1000 is the loudest acoustically (with the X20 and X30 not far behind), The on-board Fishman Blender in my Rainsong has sounded really good on stage. If it gets really loud -- like rock & roll bar band loud that threatens feedback -- I simply dial out the microphone and go straight piezo. At that point I'm not too worried about pure acoustic tone. The Anthem that Emerald offers (offered?) is pretty similar in that it mixes a UST with a microphone tone. I have Emeralds with both Anthem and the VTC Element, but don't amplify much these days. The Anthem gives you one volume knob and changing the mic/piezo balance requires getting in there with a small screwdriver - not really workable onstage in real time. You would have to come to an acceptable mix ahead of time.

The Baggs Element is certainly the simplest version -- piezo only, with all the drawbacks that go with a piezo UST. If that tone isn't good enough then you get into external preamps, effects pedals, etc, as you mentioned.

I no longer perform so it has been a long time since I plugged in and I'm not personally up to speed on the latest and greatest systems, other than reading about them here. Someone will chime in with relevant comments soon. Wow! Two responses while I was typing!

dan-electro · #5 10-05-2023, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackDaniel

I thought the element sounded terrible. I haven't met a piezo that I loved though.
The anthem sounds pretty good.
The ghost sounds... Like piezo.
Haven't tried k&k but folks seem to like it a lot.

I use a fender acoustasonic for stage and like that quite a bit. Not cf, I know, but definitely not traditional.

Thanks for the response! I honestly had not included these guitars in my search as they seemed more geared toward flatpicking/strumming with more of an electric guitar vibe. How do you like it for fingerstyle stuff? Not too cramped? I gather they use the aura spectrum-type image tech to make it sound less like a standard UST, which makes sense.

dan-electro · #6 10-05-2023, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earl49

Welcome Dan! You are considering some fine CF guitars. For me the Rainsong WS-1000 is the loudest acoustically (with the X20 and X30 not far behind), The on-board Fishman Blender in my Rainsong has sounded really good on stage. If it gets really loud -- like rock & roll bar band loud that threatens feedback -- I simply dial out the microphone and go straight piezo. At that point I'm not too worried about pure acoustic tone. The Anthem that Emerald offers (offered?) is pretty similar in that it mixes a UST with a microphone tone. I have Emeralds with both Anthem and the VTC Element, but don't amplify much these days. The Anthem gives you one volume knob and changing the mic/piezo balance requires getting in there with a small screwdriver - not really workable onstage in real time. You would have to come to an acceptable mix ahead of time.

The Baggs Element is certainly the simplest version -- piezo only, with all the drawbacks that go with a piezo UST. If that tone isn't good enough then you get into external preamps, effects pedals, etc, as you mentioned.

I no longer perform so it has been a long time since I plugged in and I'm not personally up to speed on the latest and greatest systems, other than reading about them here. Someone will chime in with relevant comments soon. Wow! Two responses while I was typing!

Thanks Earl!
Glad to hear that the Emeralds are working well for you acoustically, too. I really love their aesthetic, but again, I want something that will sound markedly better plugged in than my existing guitars at that price point (which, given what I've got at the moment, probably will be the case no matter what). It seems like most people end up--even with the blend options--going straight piezo on stage so I guess it comes down to which piezo sucks the least (and then manipulating things with IRs, images, etc.).

Thanks again for the response!

JackDaniel · #7 10-05-2023, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-electro

Thanks for the response! I honestly had not included these guitars in my search as they seemed more geared toward flatpicking/strumming with more of an electric guitar vibe. How do you like it for fingerstyle stuff? Not too cramped? I gather they use the aura spectrum-type image tech to make it sound less like a standard UST, which makes sense.

Sorry I misread finger as flat lol.
I don’t fingerpick so I can’t say. You’ll probably find the fenders somewhat cramped indeed. The emeralds have a nice fat fretboard you’ll probably like a lot.

Rashari · #8 10-05-2023, 11:14 AM

While I don’t have any experience performing amplified, I’m loving the sound of my Emerald X20 both acoustically and plugged in. It’s more spaced out than I’m used to with my Seagull so that’s taking some getting used to, but I feel that the tone and design of the instrument is wonderful for both strumming and fingerstyle.

Methos1979 · #9 10-05-2023, 12:14 PM

I've owned 5 Emeralds and 4 RainSongs and I'd go with the RainSongs all day for amplified play. Get one with the Anthem StagePro system which gives you onboard tone and volume tweaking, a tuner and most importantly for loud stage volume, a notch filter. So easy to dial out that offending note on the fly right at your fingertips!

I think the APSE comes with the Anthem StagePro these days if I'm not mistaken. That would be an excellent guitar for live play.

Aspiring · #10 10-05-2023, 01:28 PM

I have a James May Ultratonic that I put into my X20 that I feel does a great job with feedback resistance and tone.

I had an element in my x7 nylon that I really don't like and a misi trio that I generally disliked in my El Capitan but worked better with high impedance inputs.

For whatever reason the x30-12 that I ordered I don't mind the element as much.

The Enya x4 does a surprisingly good job for a much lower price point as well.

Emile640 · #11 10-05-2023, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterM

IMHO...the APSE

Out of stock and Rainsong will not be making anymore since Al Petteway passed away last week (out of respect for his surviving family per Rainsong's email). The shorty concert-OM is structurally the same except tuners and pickup which can be upgraded to the same as the APSE (confirmed with Rainsong) which I got a few months ago.

dan-electro · #12 10-05-2023, 05:58 PM

Thanks to everyone for the responses! I've been speaking with Dave at RainSong and it has been a genuinely positive and thoughtful exchange. Great communication. I'm sure I couldn't go wrong with any of the options you all mentioned. Also, very sad news about Al. One heck of a player.

From my communication w/ Dave it seems like the Baggs Anthem is a good way to go (and any further tweaking can be done w/ pedals and the board). I do like the slightly more elaborate stagepro preamp w/ EQ vs. a basic volume knob. Similar to what I have on my other guitars, so not a big stretch.

Again, thanks to everyone who responded!

K20C · #13 10-05-2023, 08:37 PM

I had an X-20 for several years and liked it very much, it was a great guitar. But, I wanted something that offered CF advantages, but sounded and felt more “intimate” as I play mostly fingerstyle.

Based on feedback in here and having great admiration for Al Petteway, I bought a used APSE from an AGF member. I love this guitar. It plays so easily and sounds like a fine wood guitar when played without amplification. I’ve plugged it in a few times and it sounds great amplified.

I can’t speak to its ability to handle loud volume as I don’t gig, but I can wholeheartedly recommend the guitar for it’s build quality, ease of play and excellent acoustic sound.

mountainmaster · #14 10-06-2023, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emile640

Out of stock and Rainsong will not be making anymore since Al Petteway passed away last week (out of respect for his surviving family per Rainsong's email). The shorty concert-OM is structurally the same except tuners and pickup which can be upgraded to the same as the APSE (confirmed with Rainsong) which I got a few months ago.

To me that seems to be a strange decision. For what better way to honor Al Petteway's legacy than a signature guitar?

But if this is the wish of his family then who am I to argue?

R.I.P. Al

douglasfan1 · #15 10-06-2023, 03:05 AM

If you just focusing on high volume (So the more volume, the better regardless the sound quality or tone preference), I guess Jumbo size CF guitar should fit you. Have a look of Emerald X30 or Rainsong Jumbo. I do think CF guitars are louder than wooden guitars. There are not much jumbo size CF guitar options nowadays...

If you need to concern about tone preference, then you may use the same reference as wooden guitar regarding to the body size. The difference of unplugged tone still audible, but less noticeable for amplified.