J45...Yes It's True.

[T Texas]

Originally Posted by brencat

Jamie did the right thing walking away and I would have done the same. That price is outrageous. You can buy them all day long for +/- $1900 shipped. On principle alone, one shouldn't have to pay a 25% premium for "best tone."

/thread

I mostly agree with you but what if Jamie orders one from a forum sponsor for that $1,900 and it sounds like the one they brought from the back at GC?

[jojobean39]

My opinion is that this sound difference is a direct result of mass production. These guitars are not meticulously paired with the right woods. They use whatever wood is next on the chopping block. Sometimes you get a set that matches really well. Sometimes you get a set that is dead. It’s luck of the draw. You have union workers building these guitars whose job it is to put wood together and build guitars.

I challenge anyone to go try to find a Collings or Santa Cruz like guitar of the same model where one sounds great and the other sounds dead. You would be VERY hard pressed to find that scenario. They’re paired properly. They take more time to match them and make sure that the end result is quality fit, finish AND sound. I doubt the fit and finish of either Gibson were much different. But the sound can vary greatly.

[brencat]

Originally Posted by T Texas

I mostly agree with you but what if Jamie orders one from a forum sponsor for that $1,900 and it sounds like the one they brought from the back at GC?

Now that he's played a few of them (assuming he's played more than just these 2 at GC), and knows what to listen for, he'll be able to get sound samples from the dealer before buying. If the dealer won't provide comparative sound samples, then he moves on to another dealer who will.

This is the method I've used with nearly perfect success for years on guitars I couldn't play beforehand. But you have to have that baseline of having played a few to know a good one when you hear it.

[jzach46]

There is a lesson here for anyone who thinks just because a guitar is ABC model of XYZ brand it's going to sound anything like the next ABC/XYZ you come across. Only by coincidence.

Jon Z.

[donlyn]

rokdog,

What is the List price and MAP price?

Where did the $2580 fit in with these?

Was it already discounted?

Was the (unmentioned) price you were advised about in the ballpark with what someone else posted as a "net" price of +/- $1900?

Was that $1900 for new or used or overall average?

Most places will offer 20% off list just for walking in the door, but can be stingy about MAP prices. (2580 x .8 = 2064, which is in the ballpark with 1900.)

Are you on GC's email list? I routinely get good coupon offers for an extra discount, some of them off any instrument and usually not to exceed $500. Just buying an accessory can get you on that mailing list if you want to give them an email address.

Did you make a counter-offer? If not, forget sales tax and figure out a price, say half way between what GC wanted ($2300) and that putative 'blind' $1900 and see if there's some wiggle room.

Point is that $400 may be a lot, but maybe $200 can be livable. That might be enough to afford a guitar about which you wrote,
"One strum and my jaw dropped. It was glorious. Rich, thick, warm and powerful... fat clear trebles ...bass you could feel in your chest OMG...
J45 nirvana!"

I would think another play might be in order, because your second impression might be different from the first. At least that way, this will never be the one that got away.

Don

edit: PS> I'm not a big fan of GC, but they have their uses.

[Proclaimer888]

Gibson makes good guitars, made from wood and never safe from imperfections or opinions about the sound.

[Jcamp]

Have you mentioned to GC what you can buy it from a sponsor for? Mayb they’d meet the price or try a little harder to match it. If u end up ordering it unseen/unheard asked them to go thro their stock and send you the one that sounds the best.
Anyone else wonder why GC wnd some of the other big companies don’t sponsor this site?

[SKYHIGH]

Originally Posted by Jcamp

Have you mentioned to GC what you can buy it from a sponsor for? Mayb they’d meet the price or try a little harder to match it. If u end up ordering it unseen/unheard asked them to go thro their stock and send you the one that sounds the best.
Anyone else wonder why GC wnd some of the other big companies don’t sponsor this site?

Probably because this site makes .00001% of Guitar buying population and the other 99%+ are willing to pay the MAP price.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by brencat

On principle alone, one shouldn't have to pay a 25% premium for "best tone."

Why not? What's the point of saving 25% on what might be a poor alternative? If you happen to find a standard J-45 gem, think of it as a cheaper version of a good TV.

[edward993]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

...One strum and my jaw dropped. It was glorious. Rich, thick, warm and powerful... fat clear trebles ...bass you could feel in your chest OMG...
J45 nirvana!

For the sake of comparison the salesperson then got one from the back... brand new, unopened. We unpacked it,tuned it up and it was like "what just happened"

Nothing even close to the first one. Sounded like a different guitar. No warmth or richness, jangly trebles, no punch. Not bad sounding but compared to the first, pretty weak....

I, personally, do not buy the "opened up" or "played in" theory. Similar "age," one occasionally played by tire kickers: not enough "there" there to draw anything but the most obvious of conclusions: the two guitars differ because two acoustic guitars will always differ, even when seemingly identical.

This underscores the importance of trying before buying: guitars sound different due to the myriad nuances that differ: from materials through every step of the build process. That two "identical" guitars ever end up sounding identical is more remarkable when you think about it. This is true --to a far lesser extent-- for electrics, how much more for acoustics whose entire sonic signature stems from every facet of the build. And notice I said nothing about Gibson's "quality control" ...see, I was being good

Edward

[Daveyo]

Originally Posted by redir

This is why I tell people to never buy an acoustic guitar online.

Great advice,I have bought many guitars online,only
To be disappointed
No more of that
David

[Davis Webb]

I don't accept the OP's experience. I would only believe the data if 10 players compared a high quality audio recording of the sound.

I do not think that our ears are even vaguely accurate. I bet you if you played both of them for 10 listeners, without any bias, they could not tell them apart.

Sorry OP, believe me I know what you are talking about. But I know enough about psychophysics to challenge these differences.

[jojobean39]

Originally Posted by Daveyo

Great advice,I have bought many guitars online,only

To be disappointed

No more of that

David

I really think it depends on whose guitar you buy online. If you’re buying a big manufacturer, there’s a lot of potential for disappointment. I think the more boutique you get, the more consistency in build quality and sound you’ll get.

Are more expensive items always better? Of corse not. But I believe smaller companies who have made a good name for themselves pay way more attention to detail and care far more about sound quality than your big box makers. There are enough people who are going to walk in and blindly buy a Gibson because it’s a Gibson to justify not making sure that one J45 does not sound dead compared to the one next to it. They can make up in volume and name what small makers can’t.

I think many guitar makers out there make excellent guitars. I find that many less make consistently good guitars.

[RILEY31]

I definitely want to play my guitars before I buy them.
The odds are not good that you will get THE ONE through the mail. I have a friend who buys a lot of his guitars from Musicians Friend and always thinks his sounds great until he plays someone else's then he wants to sell or trade his.He has already traded away two Martin's and a Gibson this year. Also if you get the quote in writing such as a text or email my local GC will match the price but I do have to pay sales tax which is a cheap price to pay for getting to play the guitar before I buy it.

[rokdog49]

Wow, you guys are all great. Lots of experience, opinions and good points.
I can't address every thing I read on here, but since many were kind enough to weigh in, I will tackle some.
First of all, I know that there will always be another J45 or any guitar out there that will take me to nirvana. Paying a premium for one that I know already does is absolutely personal but it can be and usually is, highly emotional. In the case of emotions, logical thinking usually vanishes and decisions are made. Guitars are about emotion so paying more for one that takes you to the heights isn't bad in itself.

As far as the "going rate",for a guitar, it's a moving target.

Yesterday, I was offered a pretty good deal on a new J45 from an AGF member/vendor with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee and no return freight.
It wasn't $1900, but I'm not 100% sure that number is out there. This vendor will give me the "pick of the litter" of the best of three guitars he has in stock. He will unpack each and play each and decide. He said he owns a J45 and he knows what a good one sounds like. Once again, 30 days to decide and send it back for full credit, they pay the freight if I'm unhappy.

I don't know where GC got their $2580 selling price except to say it's about ten off of MAP or close. I do think that their unwillingness to discount to a "reasonably acceptable market price" is a little odd.

As far as variances in the guitars themselves, it's pretty much universally agreed that J45's out of Bozeman are somewhat inconsistent in tone. This vendor affirmed that was their experience as well. Nobody really knows why. The less than acceptable ones he said are sent back to Gibson.
In summary, we all have feelings about how to deal with buying a new guitar and I can appreciate the folks who say to spend the extra, get the one you love. I can also appreciate the folks who say, hey there are a lot of J45's out there and one of them has your name on it at a better price.