Anyone know what Martin is using for its non "Genuine Mahogany"?

[Brick is Red]

Martin Standard series 18 models have what Martin lists in its specs as "genuine mahogany" for the back and sides. This is the wording on the Martin website as of ten minutes ago. 15 series guitars are listed as having "mahogany" back and sides. Anyone know what kind of wood Martin is using on their 15 series guitars?

Why ask? I saw stock photos of the OM15-CE on big mail order website and on Martin's website and the wood shown looks to my amateur eyes more like Khaya than Mahogany. My observation is based upon nothing more than ribbon grain in the OM15-CE photos that is not prominent in Mahogany found in the Americas.

I had a Guild D-125, which has Khaya for top back and sides. I liked both the sound and look of the wood. I'm not interested in baiting an argument about wood and I have no interest in criticizing Martin. I simply want to know what tonewood they're using on these current 15 series guitars.

My inquiry is predicated on a basic presumption that words have meaning. Martin has differentiated the "Genuine Mahogany" of the 18 series from the "Mahogany" listed in the specs of what I know is at least some of the 15 series guitars (I did not check the specs for every 15 series model). I don't know the difference.

[Mr. Jelly]

Good eye ... good catch. Good question.

[Napman41]

Good question and it's a question than has been discussed in depth here and on other guitar forums. Do a search of the forum archive and you'll find numerous threads and posts.

[Earl49]

Not trying to start a flame war, but is not clear that Martin knows -- at least some recent discussion here indicates that they cannot tell from the build sheet if you call about a particular guitar. So they seem to swap out khaya, sipo, and sapele without distinction. It may have more to do with the supplies on hand on any given day.

They do reserve "genuine mahogany" for the standard series --- D-18, 000-18, etc.

Here's the latest info I have from Martin. (Emphasis mine on "genuine mahogany".)

Due to dwindling quality and supplies with increased demand, we have had to broaden our species base for Mahoganies in order to continue making the volume of quality instruments required. Genuine Mahogany refers specifically and only to Mahoganies of the genus Swietenia. In our case, that would be Swietenia macrophylla - both native and plantation grown.

All of our Mahogany is Solid wood, not plywood, so we can get that term out of the way.

True Mahogany (which we [also] refer to as Select Mahogany or Mahogany) includes all species of the larger botanical Mahogany family, Meliaceae. The mahogany family includes the following species, for our purposes, and are used as availability dictates:
Sapele Entandrophragma cylindricum (tropical Africa)
Utile or Sipo, Entandrophragma utile (tropical Africa)
African Mahogany Khaya ivorensis (tropical Africa)
Spanish cedar Cedrela odorata (Central and South America)
Note: There are others too, but we are not utilizing them currently.

The 15 series is currently made of Sipo, and Mahogany as available. If a custom quote specifically calls for Genuine Mahogany, that is what it is supposed to get. We are keeping Genuine Mahogany set aside for customs as required and dovetailed neck guitars.

Sipo/Utile is generally the closest in appearance to Genuine Mahogany, and has the same tonal characteristics.

[Brick is Red]

Originally Posted by Napman41

Good question and it's a question than has been discussed in depth here and on other guitar forums. Do a search of the forum archive and you'll find numerous threads and posts.

Was the question answered? If so, then I would appreciate anyone generous enough to share their knowledge? If no reliable answer emerged, then I'm not particularly interested in searching and reading through old threads.

To be clear, I'm asking what could be broken into two specific question:

1.) What is the difference between "genuine mahogany" and "mahogany" as listed in Martin's specs?, and

2.) What are the species that Martin is identifying as "Mahogany" in its specs?

[dcmey]

I believe that they are using SIPO the last that I had heard.

[Brick is Red]

Thanks for these posts and for answering my question. This pins down the definitions and what is primarily being used today on 15 series guitars. I appreciate it.

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by Brick is Red

Was the question answered? If so, then I would appreciate anyone generous enough to share their knowledge?

I shall summarize:

Genuine Mahogany = Swietenia macrophylla

Mahogany = Sippo = Entandrophragma utile

Martin however reserves the right to use other things as "Mahogany", but right now it's Sipo.

[Mr Fingers]

Obviously, Martin knows exactly what wood variety goes into a particular run of guitars. They are mass producers and rely on materials control in order to achieve structural, tonal, and quality standards, and they do well. Their unwillingness to provide exact information for each specific guitar to the buyer is just a business decision. They are working to force a situation in which instruments at a particular price point must be bought without regard to exact wood type, reserving that "fussy" option for the upcharged models. It's to their advantage to proceed as though several types of wood are interchangeable, and they want the market to be confused, first of all, and then to accept this approach. My view is that if you are convinced that the distinction between various mahogany-esque woods is important to you, you won't get Martin to change their approach, so you should buy another brand or be prepared to spend more for a definitive wood selection. While I'm not attracted to Martin's lower-end models to begin with, and think that the variations in woods used for those instruments is indeed likely inconsequential, I still think it is disrespectful for the company not to provide a spec sheet of woods used. None of those instruments is cheap!

[email4eric]

It's not rocket science to figure-out what "mahogany" woods are being used on various guitar models these days.

I have guitars that are made of Sipo, Khaya, Sapele, and Honduran Mahogany.

I gave up being hung-up on which mahoganies are "genuine." I focus mostly on tone.

That said, folks should know exactly what their getting and there's no excuse for non-disclosure. Question is, does one know what that means and how it affects their desired outcome in a guitar?

Some of these new tone woods are fantastic and discovered only because what was being used back in the day became less abundant (read Honduran).

There's a lot of "wonder what this wood sounds like" going on these days and some wonderful discoveries as a result.

There's really no other pathway with regard to diversity of woods being used beside simply playing a lot of guitars and figuring-out what does and does not ring your bell.

[Mr. Scott]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Here's the latest info I have from Martin. (Emphasis mine on "genuine mahogany".)

Due to dwindling quality and supplies with increased demand, we have had to broaden our species base for Mahoganies in order to continue making the volume of quality instruments required. Genuine Mahogany refers specifically and only to Mahoganies of the genus Swietenia. In our case, that would be Swietenia macrophylla - both native and plantation grown.

All of our Mahogany is Solid wood, not plywood, so we can get that term out of the way.

True Mahogany (which we [also] refer to as Select Mahogany or Mahogany) includes all species of the larger botanical Mahogany family, Meliaceae. The mahogany family includes the following species, for our purposes, and are used as availability dictates:
Sapele Entandrophragma cylindricum (tropical Africa)
Utile or Sipo, Entandrophragma utile (tropical Africa)
African Mahogany Khaya ivorensis (tropical Africa)
Spanish cedar Cedrela odorata (Central and South America)
Note: There are others too, but we are not utilizing them currently.

The 15 series is currently made of Sipo, and Mahogany as available. If a custom quote specifically calls for Genuine Mahogany, that is what it is supposed to get. We are keeping Genuine Mahogany set aside for customs as required and dovetailed neck guitars.

Sipo/Utile is generally the closest in appearance to Genuine Mahogany, and has the same tonal characteristics.

That is a good clear answer, Todd, one of the best explanations I've read. We had a similar theme on the Martin forum some time ago (in fact, I think you helped me out on that one), but that still ended indecisively.
They say that they will use Genuine Mahogany on models which call for it, but then alter things by introducing the Dovetail Neck Joint datum in order to be selective. As I recall, the 15 series were originally spec'd as Genuine Mahogany but can now be made of anything. Of course, if the instrument sounds good then I guess it doesn't matter...

[AndrewG]

It might help to avoid confusion if Martin categorically stated 'Mahogany' for the Swietenia varieties and something like 'Mahogany-style' for the other timbers.
If someone points at a piece of wood and says 'that's mahogany', my assumption as a lay person will be that it is Swietenia macrophylla and not a substitute masquerading in appearance and, to an extent, tone, as Swietenia.
I'm sure Martin isn't deliberately setting out to obscure timber origins, but calling everything that isn't 'Genuine' mahogany, 'mahogany' with no elaboration (unless you're interested enough to search for it), is surely going to mislead the average innocent purchaser, no?
Ultimately, though, if it sounds good who really cares what you call the stuff?

[Swamp Yankee]

Interesting discussion. I notice that Taylor names sapele as sapele when it uses sapele as a solid or laminate. But Taylor then differentiates between this and "tropical mahogany" that it uses for tops and necks.

For example, my 2015 Taylor 324 was marketed as having solid sapele back and sides and a solid tropical mahogany top.

Is it reasonable to infer from this that they abide by a more narrow definition of what it means to be "mahogany"?

[Athens]

I'm sorry, but this sounds a little deceptive.

If you say genuine mahogany on some, then just mahogany on others, what's the difference and why are you using two different terms?

To me this ranks right up there with their use of the terms dovetail and simple dovetail.

It just feels a little slimy.