Entering the world of 12 strings

[ShannonA]

Hi all.
I just picked up my first 12 string after 35+ years of playing, and I'm totally hooked. But I have been stressing a little over spending my money on the right guitar. I currently have a D'angelico Fulton (the $450 model w/solid spruce top). It plays really, really great! But the low end response is just not there. Part of it may be that my two most played guitars are a D18 and 00015sm. I don't expect a budget guitar to compete with those, but I would like a little more low end. I don't really have the funds to step into a much more expensive option right now. I got this guitar at Sweetwater, and have a few weeks to send it back.
Advice?

[The Bard Rocks]

I am not familiar with that guitar or even the brand. But on a 12 string, the low end is critical. That's where the octave strings are and is what gives a 12 string its particular sound. Without a low end that rocks you, what is the point of having a 12?

[ghostnote]

I don’t know that model, either, but if you’re not happy with it, send it back. I wouldn’t even hesitate if it were me. Save the money for one that sounds the way you expect it to. Life is too short.

[Coler]

Best 12 string I have played in the lower range of budget was a takamine GJ-72CE. A phenomenal 12 string, incredibly good value.

If the sound of what you have is not satisfying you, you won't want to play it.

[brad4d8]

One of the Guild import models, F-2512E (Maple B&S, $529 at Sweetwater) or F-1512 (RW $1029 at Sweetwater). Not the same as their US made counterpart, but generally well liked and not 4 grand or more. I have the 8 string baritone, similar to these, and it's well made and sound good, so the 12ers should be as well.

[CharlieBman]

Breedlove makes some decent 12 string guitars around that price range. I'm still playing one I purchased 17 years ago...along with the HD12-28 I got last year...which is to say that it still sounds pretty darn good. Not hard to find some good deals in the used market also.

[Glennwillow]

For myself, it's important to feel good about the sound of the guitar, and good bass from a 12-string helps keep it from sounding two shrill or jangly.

Sometimes you have to spend more money. The Guild D1212 is a good sounding guitar but for more money. The Guild F-1512 is an even better sounding guitar but for even more money.

As Coler suggested, if you're not happy with the sound of the guitar, you won't play it.

- Glenn

[ShannonA]

Thanks everyone for the replies!
I've been looking at those 2 Guilds (D1212 and the jumbo 1512) along with the Takamine jumbo in that price range, and the Guild 2512.
Im leaning toward sending this guitar back and auditioning all of those. The 1512 may be a little out of what I can do, though.

[ShannonA]

I do want to say, this D'angelico is not a bad guitar. It actually plays very, very nicely! The things I notice about it that I don't like are that (compared to my Martins) it definitely lacks low end. The other thing is that when I really dig in there's not much reward... I feel that the guitar naturally compresses the sound on the low end. When I play softer it seems very balanced. It's awesome for finger picking. If I'm singing along it does have a problem keeping up with my voice on the louder parts (volume-wise) and I can't remember that ever being a problem with any of my other guitars.

[donlyn]

Entering the world of 12 strings

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

For myself, it's important to feel good about the sound of the guitar, and good bass from a 12-string helps keep it from sounding two shrill or jangly.

Sometimes you have to spend more money. The Guild D1212 is a good sounding guitar but for more money. The Guild F-1512 is an even better sounding guitar but for even more money.

As Coler suggested, if you're not happy with the sound of the guitar, you won't play it.

- Glenn

ShannonA,

Mentioned by Glenn (and not the first time it was mentioned in this thread) is the Guild F-1512 Jumbo guitar. I know you just wrote it was a bit expensive, but it is a tremendous guitar at an almost budget price.

I have had an F-1512 for a couple of years, and it has now become my primary playing-out 12 string guitar. The construction is all-solid-wood. Spruce top over rosewood back and sides. Great resonance and well-balanced. It has a smooth sound and gets compliments from those who hear it. Treble and bass presence is assured. It comes in two variations, one with on-board electronics and one without. I got the one without, as I don't like to plug-in. (Also a tad cheaper.) The Jumbo size gives the guitar great projection. And while large, a Jumbo is easy to play seated. The waist allows it to sit very low on whatever leg you prefer, and I can easily reach the entire fretboard and strings. Also comes with their well padded Guild Premium Jumbo size gig bag.

I've been playing 12 string guitars since the 60s, and this is one of the best I've ever come across. That's a period there, without adding a "for the money" qualifier.

I have four 12 string guitars, including the cheaper Guild F-2512 Jumbo budget. But that one serves a purpose. Having laminate arch-back and sides, it is less susceptible to the wicked high humidity that plagues New England, especially in late summer and early fall.

I fingerpick all my guitars using my nails as picks.

And I tune my 12 strings down a Semi-tone to 'D#'. Makes it easier on my old hands, and also gives a bit more tone. And that's just using a Light {.010 - .047} 12 string set. Also puts less pressure on the neck joint, which means less chance of a neck re-set. Never had to do a neck re-set on one, maybe because way back in the day everyone tuned their 12 strings down two semi-tones to 'D'.

Good luck and good hunting,

(_o)===###

Don
.

[donlyn]

Entering the world of 12 strings

A separate hint on playing a 12 string. Don't just limit it's use to known "12 string songs". I can play my entire repertoire on whatever guitar I have in hand. And you may be pleasantly surprised at what a twelve string can do for any given song.

For example, Creedence (John Fogerty) songs sound outrageously good with a 12 string as solo accompaniment. From "Who'll Stop the Rain" to "Centerfield".

And also play as many 'open' strings as you can, even if you have to change the key. For example, the Byrds "My Back Pages" ('I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now') I do in 'C' instead of 'E' so I can easily avoid so many barre chords. (C C4 C Am Em F G, C F C F G C C4 C, or something like that.) Besides being harder to hold, barre chords do not sound well on an acoustic 12 string.

The 'C4' is simply holding the three finger 'cowboy' open C chord and quick-fingering and striking the 'F' note on the 'D' string above the root 'C' note on the 'A' string. I use my little finger for that, but there are ways to do it with your ring finger too. I just think the little finger is simpler and cleaner (and available).

Also having a good chromatic tuner helps.
It usually takes me a second pass across the strings to tune it correctly. Lots of changing tension at play here.

Be well and play well,

(_o)===###

Don
.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by ShannonA

Hi all.
I just picked up my first 12 string after 35+ years of playing, and I'm totally hooked. But I have been stressing a little over spending my money on the right guitar. I currently have a D'angelico Fulton (the $450 model w/solid spruce top). It plays really, really great! But the low end response is just not there. Part of it may be that my two most played guitars are a D18 and 00015sm. I don't expect a budget guitar to compete with those, but I would like a little more low end. I don't really have the funds to step into a much more expensive option right now. I got this guitar at Sweetwater, and have a few weeks to send it back.
Advice?

Hi,a lot of 12strings are supplied with silly light gauge strings.
My advice would be to get a set of Martin M190s or D'addario EJ37 and tune it down one whole tone to dD --- dd.

That's what I do.
This might be of interest :

[ShannonA]

Originally Posted by donlyn

Entering the world of 12 strings

A separate hint on playing a 12 string. Don't just limit it's use to known "12 string songs". I can play my entire repertoire on whatever guitar I have in hand. And you may be pleasantly surprised at what a twelve string can do for any given song.

For example, Creedence (John Fogerty) songs sound outrageously good with a 12 string as solo accompaniment. From "Who'll Stop the Rain" to "Centerfield".

And also play as many 'open' strings as you can, even if you have to change the key. For example, the Byrds "My Back Pages" ('I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now') I do in 'C' instead of 'E' so I can easily avoid so many barre chords. (C C4 C Am Em F G, C F C F G C C4 C, or something like that.) Besides being harder to hold, barre chords do not sound well on an acoustic 12 string.

The 'C4' is simply holding the three finger 'cowboy' open C chord and quick-fingering and striking the 'F' note on the 'D' string above the root 'C' note on the 'A' string. I use my little finger for that, but there are ways to do it with your ring finger too. I just think the little finger is simpler and cleaner.

Also having a good chromatic tuner helps.
It usually takes me a second pass across the strings to tune it correctly. Lots of changing tension at play here.

Be well and play well,

(_o)===###

Don
.

Thanks... Yes. To be honest, I haven't yet even tried to learn a "12 string" song. I'm just playing it and seeing where things lead. For fingerpicking, I really love it. It's just that when I dig in, it's all jangle and no thump.

[L20A]

The best lower priced 12 string that has good bass in it is the Yamaha LL-16-12.

I suggest that the OP sent his guitar back and get the Yamaha.
It will also have the return policy, should you not like it.

[ShannonA]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Hi,a lot of 12strings are supplied with silly light gauge strings.
My advice would be to get a set of Martin M190s or D'addario EJ37 and tune it down one whole tone to dD --- dd.

That's what I do.
This might be of interest :

Those are beautiful sounding instruments!
You think it'll be safe to put that guage on this guitar?