Muffled/Muted Low E String

[paganskins]

On a guitar with plenty of height in the saddle and a good break angle on the low E string what could be the cause of a lack of sustain and a muted tone?

There's plenty of relief so the string is well away from the frets when vibrating, it's more like a palm muted tone than fret buzz.

Guitar is a J200 studio which has tusq nut and saddle, the other strings are all OK and sustain normally. There's a marked difference between the E and A so it must be something very localised to the E causing it.

I've tried replacing the string and still have the same issue.

What should I be looking as a possible culprit, saddle issue, something loose inside bridge plate or brace wise, poorly seated ball end?

Possibly connected I also get a sympathetic buzzing/vibration sound when I hit the low E hard, I had been blaming the this on the fishman aura elipse in the sound hole.

Thanks.

[Viking]

Some of my thoughts would be... Is the saddle seating well all along the bottom of it's channel in the bridge? I know you said you have changed the strings and the problem persists, but old strings can also cause what you are describing.

Have you tried a bone saddle?

What gauge of strings are you using? Lights? Mediums? Depending on how lightly the top is built, it might require a heavier gauge of strings to sufficiently drive the top.

Does the E string sound right if you fret a note? Or is it still dull and lacking in sustain? The answer to this will eliminate a nut problem.

Did you recently move from one climate to another?

How is the action?

Did the guitar ever play up to your expectations? Did something happen to the guitar after which it ceased playing up to your expectations? Dropped it? Worked on by someone?

The only other thing that comes to my mind is that the guitar is probably over built. Gibson, Martin, Taylor, etc., are in the business of making instruments for the purpose of making money. Warranty work due to the potential problems that accompany lighter construction cuts into their margins. But it is exactly the lighter construction which assures better response out of the guitar. That's why it can be such a game of hit and miss with a guitar from the big guitar companies. Some of their instruments will play wonderfully, some not so great. They build their guitars to specifications that don't take into account the individuality of a particular piece of wood, the top or the bracing material.

Did you buy the guitar sight unseen? Online or something? Or did you buy it from a store after playing this exact guitar? It's a little late now, I know, but in my book, that's a big requirement for buying a guitar from one of the big names, so that you can be assured that the exact guitar you are buying plays as you expect it to.

[paganskins]

Thanks for your thoughts, I've added comments in red.

The only real change has been the tronical tune system, which is what alerted me to the problem. The tronical tune is having trouble tuning the problem string and my clip on tuner is also having trouble picking up that string.

Thinking about it the clip on tuner hasn't ever picked up that string particularly well even when using a 12th fret harmonic. The tonical tunes using an open plucked string.

There's a thread about my tronical tune installation here.

The deadness of the string seems to be coming from the saddle end so I don't think the tronical tune is to blame. Not sure if the thudiness was always this bad or if I just put it down to being the gibson thump people talk about.

Originally Posted by Viking

Some of my thoughts would be... Is the saddle seating well all along the bottom of it's channel in the bridge? First thing I'm planning on checking, I've not noticed any problems with low output on that string from the UST though

I know you said you have changed the strings and the problem persists, but old strings can also cause what you are describing. Still there with a brand new string

Have you tried a bone saddle? No, but was the first thing I was going to try if there isn't anything obviously structurally wrong inside

What gauge of strings are you using? Lights? Mediums? Depending on how lightly the top is built, it might require a heavier gauge of strings to sufficiently drive the top. Lights (12s), the rest of the set seems to be driving the top fine. It's like night and day between the E and the A next door

Does the E string sound right if you fret a note? Or is it still dull and lacking in sustain? The answer to this will eliminate a nut problem. No, worse when fretted and seemingly worse higher up the neck

Did you recently move from one climate to another? No

How is the action? Fine, though I have just tightened the truss rod by about a quarter turn as there was a bit too much relief. I'll take that back and see if it makes a difference

Did the guitar ever play up to your expectations? Did something happen to the guitar after which it ceased playing up to your expectations? Dropped it? Worked on by someone? No, the only change is the installation of the tronical tune I talk about in this thread

The only other thing that comes to my mind is that the guitar is probably over built. Gibson, Martin, Taylor, etc., are in the business of making instruments for the purpose of making money. Warranty work due to the potential problems that accompany lighter construction cuts into their margins. But it is exactly the lighter construction which assures better response out of the guitar. That's why it can be such a game of hit and miss with a guitar from the big guitar companies. Some of their instruments will play wonderfully, some not so great. They build their guitars to specifications that don't take into account the individuality of a particular piece of wood, the top or the bracing material. It seems quite a light one (weight wise) and is certainly responsive across the other strings

Did you buy the guitar sight unseen? Online or something? Or did you buy it from a store after playing this exact guitar? It's a little late now, I know, but in my book, that's a big requirement for buying a guitar from one of the big names, so that you can be assured that the exact guitar you are buying plays as you expect it to. I've had a while just not noticed the relative deadness of that one string

[Ned Milburn]

Could be some cracking where the low E crosses the peak of the saddle. When did you first identify the issue?

Tusq is a glorified plastic, and the standard ones are formed with 45 (or close to) degree angle ramps which create peaks that crack and chip easily.

An upgrade to a well made bone saddle will probably yield a fuller and more present sounding guitar.

[paganskins]

Originally Posted by HCG Canada

Could be some cracking where the low E crosses the peak of the saddle. When did you first identify the issue?

Tusq is a glorified plastic, and the standard ones are formed with 45 (or close to) degree angle ramps which create peaks that crack and chip easily.

An upgrade to a well made bone saddle will probably yield a fuller and more present sounding guitar.

I haven't scrutinised the saddle yet, I'll have a look at it later.

But yes I think a bone saddle would be worth a try in the first instance, I was going to try Chris Alsop who seems the closest thing we have to Bob Collossi here in the UK.

[mustache79]

Things that comes to mind... The saddle isn't making as good of contact at the bottom on the low E as the other strings, the saddle has a flat bearing edge on the low E, or the string is dead.

[Viking]

Originally Posted by paganskins

It seems quite a light one (weight wise) and is certainly responsive across the other strings.

For what it's worth, how lightly a guitar is built actually doesn't have much to do with it's weight. Some elements of a guitar contribute very positively when they are heavier.

Yeah, I would give a bone saddle a try first, see if that addresses the issue. It's one of the most likely culprits and one of the easiest to address.

[paganskins]

As suspected the saddle was the culprit, it had been filed down badly and the base wasn't flat and subsequently not making contact beneath the low E.

I quickly leveled the base before posting off to Chris Alsop for a bone copy to be made, better but I'm still going to try a bone saddle instead.

Can't help wondering how much the fishman UST must inhibit the acoustic tone.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by paganskins

As suspected the saddle was the culprit, it had been filed down badly and the base wasn't flat and subsequently not making contact beneath the low E.

I quickly leveled the base before posting off to Chris Alsop for a bone copy to be made, better but I'm still going to try a bone saddle instead.

Can't help wondering how much the fishman UST must inhibit the acoustic tone.

Glad that things are working out.

It is true that UST pickups can lessen tone quality somewhat, but it is usually very minimal, and what I would describe as a slightly lessened "presence" in the sound. I can imagine that recording artists, if/when recording acoustically in the studio, may wish to use guitars with no UST installed. However, for most of us (including performers or hobbyists) during practicing, jamming, or performing live, the difference will be of no practical significance whatsoever.