Does any guitar have a wolf note?

[Banditos]

Update:

I changed today the pins to brass which I had at home, some month or years ago I was enthusiastic to try out them which I never did but now...

So the "thunk" or "muddy" G didn't go away it may be reduced a little bit but not sure, however it seemed like the brass pin added some bass overall I think to the low E string or probably to the whole instrument. The E note itself got louder for sure... it was an interesting experiment I changed it back for now to not stacking the different healing ideas up, but I will try it out again, not much of a different thought... but interesting

I measured the pin in the Martin it was 0.4 gram (is it plastic???), the brass is 3.3 gram!!!

I also tried the cardboard thing which was not as easy as I thought, ok it was not difficult per se just I needed to tinker a bit. Didn't change a thing, but i didn't play much with it like different hole sizes or so, I just put it in, it was approximately narrowed the hole by 7 or 8 mm.

Also put 2 clip capos to the headstock, didn't change anything.

I read it in a 15 y old or so thread, that somebody was forcing to play only that note for 3 minutes every day for a month, and it did go away. Interesting.

My issue is not having a dead spot or wolf note or whatever it is called, my issue is that it is the G...

I was shaving braces on a guitar recently and when I did that on the back braces it drastically changed the bass response and bass volume. I was checking the pitch, and it was changing by the shaving as well. It was a cheaper guitar I just enjoyed experimenting with, I am not sure if I do this with a more expensive guitar. I recorded the whole process BTW with the purpose to put it together and share it on YouTube, but I was lazy ever since, I may be doing it some time soon. It was fun anyway.

[Alan Carruth]

The daddy of all 'wolf' notes, the one on the 'cello, happens for the same reason as the low E string wolf, usually around G, on guitars. On the guitar it comes across as a lack of sustain, and possibly a 'fuzzy' sense of pitch. A strong wolf on a 'cello can warble, growl, or howl, almost solely thanks to the fact that the string is being bowed.

The 'job' of the bridge on a stringed instrument is to define the vibrating length. It does this by having a much different 'impedance' than the string does. Impedance is a measure of how hard it is to drive something at a particular frequency. If you have two objects that are coupled together it tells you how easy it is for one to drive the other at that pitch. As a more or less trivial example, each section of a string has the same impedance (determined largely by it's mass and tension) as the next one, so a wave can travel down the string with no problem. When the wave meets something, like a bridge or nut, that has a different impedance some of the energy is reflected back into the string, and that keeps the 'standing wave' pattern of the string resonance going.

The bridge is attached to the soundboard, and the soundboard has to move to produce sound. If the soundboard itself has a strong resonance at a particular pitch, or can be driven by something like an 'air' resonance, it makes it easier to mover, and reduces the impedance of the bridge at that pitch. If the impedance of the bridge drops too much it won't reflect enough energy back into the string to keep the standing wave pattern going.

On the 'cello it's the reflected wave from the bridge that breaks the string loose from the bow, and allows for the continued transfer of energy from the bow to the string. When the 'air' resonance matches the fundamental of a played note the motion of the top due to the air resonance gets the bridge rocking so much that the pitch is not reflected back, and the bow can't drive that pitch.

It can drive the octave 'harmonic' though, so the string simply shifts upward in pitch. When that happens the 'air' resonance is no longer being fed energy, and dies out. Once it does the top of the bridge stops rocking, and the string 'sees' the end where it's supposed to be. The fundamental pitch is once again reflected back, standing wave is reconstructed, energy once more gets fed into the 'air' resonance, and the whole thing starts over. That's why the 'cello wolf howls and growls and warbles.

On the guitar the instrument just sucks the energy out of the string, and the sound dies until the next time it gets plucked. If you can run a spectrogram or a waterfall plot of the note you can sometimes see the frequency 'come and go'.

[Sadie-f]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

The daddy of all 'wolf' notes, the one on the 'cello, happens for the same reason as the low E string wolf, usually around G, on guitars. On the guitar it comes across as a lack of sustain, and possibly a 'fuzzy' sense of pitch. A strong wolf on a 'cello can warble, growl, or howl, almost solely thanks to the fact that the string is being bowed.

The 'job' of the bridge on a stringed instrument is to define the vibrating length. It does this by having a much different 'impedance' than the string does. Impedance is a measure of how hard it is to drive something at a particular frequency. If you have two objects that are coupled together it tells you how easy it is for one to drive the other at that pitch. As a more or less trivial example, each section of a string has the same impedance (determined largely by it's mass and tension) as the next one, so a wave can travel down the string with no problem. When the wave meets something, like a bridge or nut, that has a different impedance some of the energy is reflected back into the string, and that keeps the 'standing wave' pattern of the string resonance going.

The bridge is attached to the soundboard, and the soundboard has to move to produce sound. If the soundboard itself has a strong resonance at a particular pitch, or can be driven by something like an 'air' resonance, it makes it easier to mover, and reduces the impedance of the bridge at that pitch. If the impedance of the bridge drops too much it won't reflect enough energy back into the string to keep the standing wave pattern going.

On the 'cello it's the reflected wave from the bridge that breaks the string loose from the bow, and allows for the continued transfer of energy from the bow to the string. When the 'air' resonance matches the fundamental of a played note the motion of the top due to the air resonance gets the bridge rocking so much that the pitch is not reflected back, and the bow can't drive that pitch.

It can drive the octave 'harmonic' though, so the string simply shifts upward in pitch. When that happens the 'air' resonance is no longer being fed energy, and dies out. Once it does the top of the bridge stops rocking, and the string 'sees' the end where it's supposed to be. The fundamental pitch is once again reflected back, standing wave is reconstructed, energy once more gets fed into the 'air' resonance, and the whole thing starts over. That's why the 'cello wolf howls and growls and warbles.

On the guitar the instrument just sucks the energy out of the string, and the sound dies until the next time it gets plucked. If you can run a spectrogram or a waterfall plot of the note you can sometimes see the frequency 'come and go'.

Alan tysm for that far better explanation of the mechanism.

[Banditos]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

The daddy of all 'wolf' notes, the one on the 'cello, happens for the same reason as the low E string wolf, usually around G, on guitars. On the guitar it comes across as a lack of sustain, and possibly a 'fuzzy' sense of pitch. A strong wolf on a 'cello can warble, growl, or howl, almost solely thanks to the fact that the string is being bowed.

The 'job' of the bridge on a stringed instrument is to define the vibrating length. It does this by having a much different 'impedance' than the string does. Impedance is a measure of how hard it is to drive something at a particular frequency. If you have two objects that are coupled together it tells you how easy it is for one to drive the other at that pitch. As a more or less trivial example, each section of a string has the same impedance (determined largely by it's mass and tension) as the next one, so a wave can travel down the string with no problem. When the wave meets something, like a bridge or nut, that has a different impedance some of the energy is reflected back into the string, and that keeps the 'standing wave' pattern of the string resonance going.

The bridge is attached to the soundboard, and the soundboard has to move to produce sound. If the soundboard itself has a strong resonance at a particular pitch, or can be driven by something like an 'air' resonance, it makes it easier to mover, and reduces the impedance of the bridge at that pitch. If the impedance of the bridge drops too much it won't reflect enough energy back into the string to keep the standing wave pattern going.

On the 'cello it's the reflected wave from the bridge that breaks the string loose from the bow, and allows for the continued transfer of energy from the bow to the string. When the 'air' resonance matches the fundamental of a played note the motion of the top due to the air resonance gets the bridge rocking so much that the pitch is not reflected back, and the bow can't drive that pitch.

It can drive the octave 'harmonic' though, so the string simply shifts upward in pitch. When that happens the 'air' resonance is no longer being fed energy, and dies out. Once it does the top of the bridge stops rocking, and the string 'sees' the end where it's supposed to be. The fundamental pitch is once again reflected back, standing wave is reconstructed, energy once more gets fed into the 'air' resonance, and the whole thing starts over. That's why the 'cello wolf howls and growls and warbles.

On the guitar the instrument just sucks the energy out of the string, and the sound dies until the next time it gets plucked. If you can run a spectrogram or a waterfall plot of the note you can sometimes see the frequency 'come and go'.

May I ask in case you shave back braces for transposing a wolf note which exact braces usually you shave? Also on the particular brace in the middle or at the tapered end, or all together? Also as a result the wolf note goes higher or lower? (like from G it would go down to F# or to G#? )
Mine is on the G but a little bit on the G# as well. The best would be just a bit higher so exactly on the G#!

You were right about the main air resonance thing BTW as I put a sound hole cap on the guitar (it is actually a humidifier which almost completely covering the hole) and that G (and all the notes on the low E string) had amazing sustain. Just no actual bass volume.

Thank you!

[Alan Carruth]

Usually it's most productive to cut down the lower two back braces, mostly by shaving wood off the center. YMMV

[Banditos]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Usually it's most productive to cut down the lower two back braces, mostly by shaving wood off the center. YMMV

Thank you! Does the wolf note shifts higher by that? From G to G#?

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

...I have a very nice 1999 Taylor K14c (cedar/koa grand auditorium)....When it was first delivered it had a quiet wolf note on the low E string at F#. You know, thunk, thunk, thunk....However, somewhere around the guitar's ninth or tenth year it simply went away. One day I just noticed it no longer exhibited that wolf dead note at all. The F# range like a bell. And it hasn't since......I think the question of why a guitar would cease to have a wolf note on its own it worthy of discussion....Bob

Bob I agree as it brings two things to (my) mind; 1)it confirms that a guitar's sonic character can change over time (we discuss this point all the time) and, 2) I will now live in "fear" of my favorite guitars -in reverse of ur experience- developing a wolf note at -of course- the worst possible frequency/note. I'll keep Alan's back brace "remedy" in reserve as needed.

[Jack the Pearl]

Yikes! Read this whole thread. I've never heard this phenomenon in my acoustic (a Blueridge BG-160), so call me lucky, I guess. Or, I suppose, maybe I'd hear it if I had paid more for my guitar. In any case, I don't mean to make light of the collective experience and expertise on display here.

Again, without meaning to disparage anyone's insights, the likelihood that audience members won't hear this calls to mind Frank Zappa's comment: Shut up and play your guitar!

Jack, the Philistine

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by Jack the Pearl

...Again, without meaning to disparage anyone's insights, the likelihood that audience members won't hear this calls to mind Frank Zappa's comment: Shut up and play your guitar!...

No doubt. The problem is for the player. Once you hear it, it's hard to unhear it.

[thefsb]

Originally Posted by Banditos

Hi, first and foremost I would like to thank you your amazing contributions about this and everything else on this forum! I started to look for this issue and I see a lot of your smart and wise and concerned posts. Thank you!

I also thank Alan for that post. It's clear and concise in dealing with a subtle issue.

Originally Posted by Banditos

So as I already posted I just bought second hand an HD 28 and of course it has that on the G on the low E. If I did my homework well I have options like:
...
Anything else?

Can you demonstrate the problem for us? A video made with your phone might suffice. This might allow us to decide if the effect is bad enough to warrant modifying the guitar or if it's about normal.

For myself, when I got the LJ56, my first really good acoustic, I was practicing scales one day. I play each major and minor scale in 7 different positions up and down the neck. Suddenly I noticed the F# on fret 9 of the 5th string was weak. Thunk. The fundamental disappeared immediately and the overtones sustained. I played the same F# on the 4th string fret 4: same effect but much less noticeable since the tone of the note comprises more harmonics down there. The same F# 6th string fret 14: terrible because the tone is dominated by the fundamental up there.

I spent weeks analyzing the problem with microphones, tap tests and spectrum analyzers, applying weights and damping to distinguish which peaks came from which resonance, played with using a brass pin or two. Then I went to a guitar shop and played several good (i.e. responsive) guitars. They ALL had something similar. Then I talked about this on a different forum and I was told it is certainly not a defect. That's in the nature of acoustic guitars.

So I then had a blinding conversion (on my road to Damascus?) and decided to accept it and work with it instead of fighting it.

HOWEVER, it's clear from a thread here a while back that on some guitars the stars align in a very unfortunate manner and the wolf note is serious. It's not at all common but in those cases you're in trouble and it may be hard to fix.

That's why I suggest you share some kind of demonstration of the problem. If it's serious then we shouldn't send you away saying to get used to it.

[thefsb]

Originally Posted by KevinH

No doubt. The problem is for the player. Once you hear it, it's hard to unhear it.

That's is so true.

However, once I understood, I found I could embrace the "problem" and call it a friend. Resonances are there to make my guitar loud. Without them I'd have a tight, unrewarding box. I made only a couple of small fingering changes in my whole rep and for the rest I lean in to it. Focus on the music.

Aren't we lucky to have such fine instruments that we can fuss over these things?

[fretfile100]

Wow Alan is just a wealth of knowledge! We are fortunate to have his expertise.

[gfspencer]

My new Martin D-42 Modern Deluxe had a wolf tone after a string change. The wolf tone went away with new, different strings.