"The Minor Key" Question

[Mellow_D]

HOTSPUR WROTE:

The relative minor of A major is F# minor. (The relative minor starts on the sixth scale degree of the major).

The major scale pattern is: whole whole half whole whole whole half, right? Can you use that, starting on A, and see how you get the A major scale?

The minor scale pattern is whole -- half -- whole -- whole -- half -- whole -- whole.

JACK COOPER WROTE:

The key of A minor (natural minor) has no sharps or flats.

So the notes are : A, B, C, D, E, F, G

The chords are : Amin, B diminished (forget about this one just now), C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G major.

OK, the question I'm going to ask may sound crazy, but it comes from my severe lack of comprehension, from my utter ever-growing confusion. And my question relates to the information shared above in the quotes from Hotspur and Jack Cooper. Here goes, and please forgive me ... for the nutty question and any clumsy use of terminology in trying to pose the question ...

First, here's my understanding regarding the MAJOR:

The Major Scale "yields" chords, chords that are derived from the notes of the major scale.

So if, say, we take the "Key Of A":

1. The Major Scale Pattern/The Notes are as follows:

whole - whole - half - whole - whole - whole - half

A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G#

2. And The Chord Sequence derived from that is as follows:

I = A Major
II = B Minor
III = C# Minor
IV = D Major
V = E Major
VI = F# Minor
VII = G# Dim


After others confirmed that the above information -- that my understanding of The Major -- was correct, I then asked everyone:

What if we're talking about NOT the Key Of A Major/the A Major Scale ... but rather the Key Of A MINOR/the A MINOR Scale?

That is, I asked: What is the MINOR SCALE PATTERN and what is the CHORD SEQUENCE derived from that pattern? And, as you can see in the quote box at the top of this post, Hotspur and Jack Cooper shared (a) the scale pattern (and the actual notes) and (b) the chord sequence derived from it for the RELATIVE/NATURAL. Now after going back and reading Hotspur's and Jack Cooper's replies, something hit me ...

If there are THREE kinds of minor scales -- relative/natural, harmonic and melodic -- then isn't there a different scale pattern for each of these minor scales, and then mustn't there also be a different chord sequence for each of these three minor scales, as well, since the chord sequence derives from the scale?

In other words, to say "a song is in the Key Of A Minor" ... well, which "A Minor" ... considering there are 3 kinds of minor scales?

How's that for being utterly confused now?

[MICHAEL MYERS]

If something is in the key of A minor it means natural minor. There is no such thing as a song in the key of A melodic minor.

The melodic and harmonic minor are drummed into classical students like there is no tomorrow (most of them don't even know the natural minor exists).

I don't actually understand the point of the melodic minor (the bit where coming down is different from going up), but I'm sure someone here does.

[815C]

A major = A B C# D E F# G# A

F# natural Minor = F# G# A B C# D E F#

To get the Relative Minor, you simply take the major scale and and start it on the 6th note (in this case the 6th note of the A Major scale is F#).

[Bern]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

The Major Scale "yields" chords, chords that are derived from the notes of the major scale.

Same holds true for a Minor scale...
Am7 Bmb5 Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7
That said, to confuse you even more, the chord functions change.

To be honest, from your questions you asked, I'm not sure if you are ready for all this. Perhaps, you may want to take a step back and review earlier elementary stuff you have learned.

It's good ask questions here, but, I think, getting various answers, which might be all correct, but worded differently, may cause confusion for you. Working from only one source might more beneficial in the long run.

[815C]

To create a Melodic Minor, take the Natural Minor and raise the 6th and 7th notes in Natural Minor by a half step.

To create a Harmonic Minor, take the Natural Minor and raise the 7th note a half step.

F# Natural Minor = F# G# A B C# D E F#

F# Melodic Minor = F# G# A B C# D# E# F#

F# Harmonic Minor = F# G# A B C# D E# F#

In classical music, the Melodic Minor is played when ascending, but the Natural Minor is played when descending. In jazz, they play the Melodic Minor both ascending and descending. Not a hard and fast rule - but a principle.

[mr. beaumont]

You will often see an Emajor or E7 chord in a tune in A minor...this chord is borrowed from the harmonic minor.

That might be enough knowledge on the topic, depending on what kind of music you play.

[Ryler]

And when you can't talk intelligently about it, you just link to a Wikipedia article. (It is a good brief summary, though.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by Bern

Same holds true for a Minor scale...
Am7 Bmb5 Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7
That said, to confuse you even more, the chord functions change.

To be honest, from your questions you asked, I'm not sure if you are ready for all this. Perhaps, you may want to take a step back and review earlier elementary stuff you have learned.

It's good ask questions here, but, I think, getting various answers, which might be all correct, but worded differently, may cause confusion for you. Working from only one source might more beneficial in the long run.

In the quote box at the top of my post, you'll see another member, Jack Cooper said:

1. the notes of the A natural minor are: A, B, C, D, E, F, G

2. and that the chord sequence for the above is:
Amin, B diminished, C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G major.

But you list the chord sequence as:
Am7 Bmb5 Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7

Is there a reason you list the minor chords as minor 7 where he has them as only minor; the B chord as minor flat 5 where he has it as B diminished; the C and F as major 7 where he has them as just major; and the G chord as a dominant 7 where he has it as just major?

And what would you suggest I read to learn what determines the "nature" of each chord that corresponds to each note in the scale?

In other words, when doing a chord sequence to correspond to the notes of a scale -- whether it be a major scale or any of the three minor scales -- what determines what the I, II, III, IV, V, VI, and VII chords actually are? (I don't mean the letters A B C D E F G but what determines what "kind" of chord each letter is, as in major or minor.)

Hope that makes sense, and please, again, excuse my clumsy/crude use of musical terms as I'm still learning not just theory but the "jargon" used in discussing theory.

thanks

[stanron]

Look back to Bern's original post. He said

"but, I think, getting various answers, which might be all correct, but worded differently, may cause confusion for you. Working from only one source might more beneficial in the long run. "

He was correct.

A triad is a three note chord. Starting at A you pick A miss B pick C miss D and pick E. You get A + C + E. The chord of A minor.

If you pick four notes, more advanced but less relevant, you get A, miss B, C, miss D, E miss F and G you get A + C + E + G the notes that make Am7. Well whoever posted that proves they know a bit about four note chords but not much about education. May I suggest you forget that post.

[clintj]

The minor key chords are built the same way as the major scale. Pick a root, and add a third and a fifth from the scale. For A minor, you get A, C, E. Root, minor third, perfect fifth, so A minor.
B: B, D, F. Root, minor third, diminished fifth. B diminished. AKA Bm flat 5.
C: C, E, G. Root, major third, perfect fifth. C major
D: D, F, G. Root, minor third, perfect fifth. D minor
E: E, G, B. Root, minor third, perfect fifth. E minor
F: F, A, C. Root, major third, perfect fifth. F major
G: G, B, D. Root, major third, perfect fifth. G major
If you extend the chord out to the seventh, you get a range of major and minor sevenths, depending on what the root is. Those are where the list of maj7, min7, dominant 7 chords comes from. A music theory book will cover all of this plus some. If you can memorize the major scale chords, you have the minor scale chords. The cycle just starts in a different spot.

@Mellow D
Minor chord progressions are a big can of worms.
You might find a chord from any of the three minor scales in the same progression, minor progressions often modulate to a major key or just borrow a chord or two from it and then go back to a minor progression - maybe.
As mentioned above you will get a lot of different answers in an online forum. Some are correct, some are not, some maybe correct but worded such you can't understand it, etc.
My suggestion - don't try to understand them until you are very comfortable with everything major. Just play'm as you find'm and don't confuse yourself trying to understand minor key stuff. Note - just one online forumite's opinion.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

In other words, to say "a song is in the Key Of A Minor" ... well, which "A Minor" ... considering there are 3 kinds of minor scales?

How's that for being utterly confused now?

If somebody just says A minor, assume you're using the natural minor.

The harmonic and melodic minors are grossly misused. Most of the time, it's not necessary to think of them as a separate scale. Remember, no matter what key you are soloing in, you have access to all 12 notes! Yes, some notes will be more dissonant, but you can still you them and make them harmonious.

So use natural minor.

Harmonic minor exists for one reason: the leading tone. Play the major scale. (Let's play it in C for the sake of simplicity). C D E F G A B ... C.

Do you hear how that B really really wants to resolve to C? (If you don't, download the functional ear trainer from miles.be - it's free - and start using it. It changed my musical life). How there's this tension there, pushing you to resolution?

You notice that, in C major, that B note is part of a G major chord - your V chord. This sets up a very strong cadence: G major to C major resolves so well in part because you're letting that leading note slide up a half step to where it wants to be. So if you play G then C, you feel very solidly in C major.

Okay, what happens in A minor? A B C D E F G A. Well, G-A is a full step. It doesn't have the same "dying to resolve" feeling that B-C had in a major context. So Em-Am doesn't have the same sense of finality - it's defines a key center less well.

But somebody had the bright idea to say, "Well, what if we pretended, just for the sake of the cadence, that a minor scale had a leading tone. We acted like that G was a G#. That would give us a stronger E MAJOR to A minor cadence, and we could manipulate the leading tone to strong effect."

Viola. The harmonic minor was born. Now, look - if you're using that G#, and you're not using it as a leading tone, you're really not using the harmonic minor. You're just using a major 7th accidental in the minor scale, which is totally cool (remember, you always have access to all 12 notes!). You hear a lot of people (metal shredders, mostly) talk about soloing in harmonic minor with no sense of what a leading tone is and they're really not using the harmonic minor.

The main reason you even need to be aware of the harmonic minor is because that major V chord is so common, and you need to be wary of clashing the G-natural in the natural minor scale with the G# in the harmonic minor (although you actually hear this clash fairly often). As you get better at hearing chords, and understanding where your chord tones are, you won't need to think about a separate scale for this at all. (It's an issue you'll have whenever a non-diatonic chord is used).

The melodic minor is very rare in popular music. Somebody (probably not someone as bright as the guy who figured out the harmonic minor) said, "Wait a second - but if you do that, and I'm playing an ascending line, I have to play E F G# A - and that F-to-G# is kind of a big gap, three half steps, and it's really limiting my melodic options." And so the smart guy said, "You know what, just sing an F# there when you're going up. But when you're going down, since you don't need the leading tone (remember, you're not in the harmonic minor UNLESS YOU'RE USING THE G# AS A LEADING TONE), just let them both drop back down a half step and we're all golden."

(There was actually a big tradition of moveable notes in scales that predates the creation of the minor scale, so this wasn't as crazy as it sometimes sounds to people today who say "what? scale notes can move?")

So just like you're only using the harmonic minor if you're using that G# as a leading tone, you're only using the melodic minor if you're using that F# to smooth out your ascending melody which includes that G#. Otherwise, if you hit that F#, it's just an accidental. The raised sixth in minor is actually pretty common, as it's also the distinguishing feature of the ... actually, I'm not going to finish this sentence because it requires me to use a word-which-rhymes-with-Toad, and that will just confuse you even more. So instead, just trust me when I say a raised sixth in minor is pretty common and let's leave it at that for now.

Deep breath. Okay. Here's the most important thing:

Using these concepts requires that you not think of scales as shapes on the fretboard full of interchangeable notes. It requires that you actually be able to hear each scale degree as it's own note with it's own distinct relationship to the tonic note. This is important, and comes from ear training (see that thing I mentioned in a parenthetical above? If you haven't downloaded it yet, now would be a good time).

Hopefully this answers your question.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

If there are THREE kinds of minor scales -- relative/natural, harmonic and melodic -- then isn't there a different scale pattern for each of these minor scales, and then mustn't there also be a different chord sequence for each of these three minor scales

Potentially, yes, but not necessarily.

Hotspur's explained it well above: historically it's not right to think of harmonic and melodic minor as scales in their own right. They are merely occasional alterations to natural minor, for either harmonic or melodic purposes.

So the leading tone of "harmonic" minor gives a stronger V-I cadence. (Turns "aeolian mode" into "the minor key" if you like).
The raised 6 of "melodic" minor - along with the leading tone - makes a smoother, more comfortable melodic ascent to the tonic. (Which is why it's used ascending only, at least in theoretical convention.)

Harmonic minor does give rise to (or "explain") two important minor key chords: the dominant major (V, extendable to V7, and in jazz to V7b9), and the leading tone diminished (viio, extendable to dim7).
Eg, in key of A minor, you will get E7 (or E7b9), and G#dim7 (G#-B-D-F). Both chords resolve strongly to Am - and are more common in traditional minor keys than Em or G.

In jazz, melodic minor is often used to harmonise a tonic minor chord. Ie, in A minor, the Am chord might have 6, maj7 or 9 extensions.

It's rare for chords to be harmonised from other steps of either scale. In jazz, there's a lot of talk about other modes of melodic minor and the associated chords; but these are not used in the key they appear to come from.
Eg, from A melodic minor we can get D7#11 and G#7alt; but both will be used in the key of C# minor (resolving to C#m), not A minor. IOW, G#7alt and D7#11 are examples of chromatic chords in the key of C# minor, with only a coincidental resemblance to A melodic minor chords.
(In A minor, the equivalent chords are E7alt (#5#9 etc) and Bb7#11. Chord tones in both seem to imply F melodic minor, but that's coincidence.)

Occasionally you'll see augmented III chords - arguably derived from harmonic or melodic minor - but these are normally passing chromaticisms, and can often be seen as altered V chords.
Eg, C+ in key of A minor is the same notes as E+, and will usually behave like E+, resolving to either Am or F.
Or a chord something like C+ (or Cmaj7#5) might be used in passing between Am and C (as in the intro to "Stairway to Heaven", and a few older jazz tunes).

In short, the variable 6th and 7th degrees in the minor scale can give rise to various other chords, but always with particular functions to do with chromatic voice-leading (half-steps up or down to diatonic notes and chord tones).

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by 815C

To create a Melodic Minor, take the Natural Minor and raise the 6th and 7th notes in Natural Minor by a half step.

To create a Harmonic Minor, take the Natural Minor and raise the 7th note a half step.

F# Natural Minor = F# G# A B C# D E F#

F# Melodic Minor = F# G# A B C# D# E# F#

F# Harmonic Minor = F# G# A B C# D E# F#

In classical music, the Melodic Minor is played when ascending, but the Natural Minor is played when descending. In jazz, they play the Melodic Minor both ascending and descending. Not a hard and fast rule - but a principle.

Thank you for spelling out the notes of the step pattern for each.

A couple of members -- Jack Cooper and Bern -- have already written what the chord sequence is for the natural minor (though there were some differences I asked about). Jack Cooper gave the chord sequence for the "A Natural Minor Scale" as Amin, B diminished, C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G major and Bern gave it as Am7, Bmb5, Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7.

What would be the chord sequence for the Melodic Minor and what would be the chord sequence for the Harmonic Minor? I don't know if I'm saying it correctly, but in other words, well, let me write it this way and you or others can fill in the question marks:

Melodic Minor Chord Sequence

I = ?
II = ?
III = ?
IV = ?
V = ?
VI = ?
VII = ?


Harmonic Minor Chord Sequence

I = ?
II = ?
III = ?
IV = ?
V = ?
VI = ?
VII = ?

[Kerbie]

I think you've basically gotten the answers already. If a song is in the key of Am, that refers to a natural minor. And the chord sequence has been shown... same chord sequence you find in the key of C major. The melodic and harmonic minors are really alternative scales. They don't refer to keys... you won't hear of a song in the key of A harmonic minor.

Referencing a key tells us how many sharps and flats are in the music and reveals information about the tone or mood the composer wants. You can't really write in a key where we use one note on the way up and another on the way down. I have frequently heard the use of harmonic minor being described as a "harmonic minor moment." In the key of Am, that moment might occur when the composer wanted to make use of an E chord, rather than the E minor. Therefore, a soloist might make quick use of the G# instead of the G note. But, using that "moment" doesn't change the key of the song. Does that help a little?