Tube Tone With Out Tubes

[Steve DeRosa]

Not at all, Rusty, and that's why I included the link to Bob's own website; BTW check out the Product section writeups - gives some additional insight on his current philosophy...

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Not at all, Rusty, and that's why I included the link to Bob's own website; BTW check out the Product section writeups - gives some additional insight on his current philosophy...

I didn't see anything supporting your assumptions. He does say about a pair of his designs that a particular feature is impossible to achieve with a normal solid state design. But a normal tube design cannot do it either, at it may be possible with a more exotic solid state design.

[moon]

Originally Posted by RustyZombie

Bandwagon fallacy.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong in your assertion, but your argument for it is invalid.

In a perfect sphere in a perfect vacuum, that may be true.

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by moon

In a perfect sphere in a perfect vacuum, that may be true.

A logical fallacy is still a logical fallacy in the real world. Whether logic is, well, logic is not dependent on a particular set of circumstances.

[wrathfuldeity]

Tube tone without tubes...not possible. My argument based on...my ears, my experience and my choice. If forced to describe...the simpler the better...with tubes there is a dynamic that is unpredictable and chaotic..."its alive" and its something that is interactive and learn to work with it. I do not want digital consistency...its boring and fatigues but has all the colors of a rainbow unicorn...whatever. I am a mere simpleton, easily entertained and happy with the tubes and analogue pedals.

[induction]

Originally Posted by wrathfuldeity

Tube tone without tubes...not possible. My argument based on...my ears, my experience and my choice. If forced to describe...the simpler the better...with tubes there is a dynamic that is unpredictable and chaotic..."its alive" and its something that is interactive and learn to work with it. I do not want digital consistency...its boring and fatigues but has all the colors of a rainbow unicorn...whatever. I am a mere simpleton, easily entertained and happy with the tubes and analogue pedals.

So you have actually tried every solid state guitar amp ever made? How long did that take?

[induction]

BB King and Ty Tabor both got great tube tone from Gibson Lab Series solid state amplifiers. Ty Tabor is a great example because he was so secretive about his amp, going so far as to disguise it with logos from other manufacturers, and many people debated what he actually played. I never heard anyone suggest he might be playing something solid-state. These amps are usually said to sound nearly indistinguishable from vintage Fenders.

In excellent condition, they currently sell for around $300 used.

Here's a link, in case you want to explore any further.

[wrathfuldeity]

Originally Posted by induction

So you have actually tried every solid state guitar amp ever made? How long did that take?

Of course not...and ss does have advantages and does some things very well for some applications. But that was not the question.

Perhaps I'm being snotty but imho the debate is insane...because tubes vs ss vs digital are just different species...its like trying to debate can cats be a dog...no, but cats can have (to a certain extent) dog like behavior.

[Gypsyblue]

I kind of agree.

Although I do like BB King's sound when he played through those old solid state Lab Series amps.

Worked for him...but did not sound like a tube amp.

I don't think it's possible to create genuine tube tone from digital or solid state gear.

You can create something good...but it won't be genuine tube tone.

And it for sure will not be tube tone just because you've added a bunch of saturated "bagful of bumble bees" distortion.

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by wrathfuldeity

Tube tone without tubes...not possible. My argument based on...my ears, my experience and my choice. If forced to describe...the simpler the better...with tubes there is a dynamic that is unpredictable and chaotic..."its alive" and its something that is interactive and learn to work with it. I do not want digital consistency...its boring and fatigues but has all the colors of a rainbow unicorn...whatever. I am a mere simpleton, easily entertained and happy with the tubes and analogue pedals.

It already exists, and has for quite some time. Did you perhaps mean to say a 100% accurate tube emulation isn't possible yet?

Originally Posted by wrathfuldeity

Of course not...and ss does have advantages and does some things very well for some applications. But that was not the question.

Perhaps I'm being snotty but imho the debate is insane...because tubes vs ss vs digital are just different species...its like trying to debate can cats be a dog...no, but cats can have (to a certain extent) dog like behavior.

People who actually build both kinds of amps will tell the circuit makes a larger tonal difference than tube or solid state. A much more apt analogy would be to say they are like different breeds of the same animal. They are more alike than different and with the same job, just how they do that job is a bit different.

[moon]

Originally Posted by RustyZombie

A logical fallacy is still a logical fallacy in the real world. Whether logic is, well, logic is not dependent on a particular set of circumstances.

There's nothing remotely logical about making assertions of fact which aren't actually true.

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by moon

There's nothing remotely logical about making assertions of fact which aren't actually true.

I'm glad to see you finally agree with me.

[induction]

Originally Posted by wrathfuldeity

Of course not...and ss does have advantages and does some things very well for some applications. But that was not the question.

Perhaps I'm being snotty but imho the debate is insane...because tubes vs ss vs digital are just different species...its like trying to debate can cats be a dog...no, but cats can have (to a certain extent) dog like behavior.

I was just teasing. Should have put a smiley or something.

I do disagree, though. I think that the idea that solid state amps have a recognizable sound that is easily distinguishable from tube amps is an idea that is firmly cemented into many people's minds by sometimes decades-old experiences with just a few different amps and enormous quantities of second-hand wisdom. Once the idea takes hold, even direct experience of its refutation often will not budge it.

Same with digital modeling. Many pros actually prefer modeling in the studio, and I sincerely doubt that anyone could tell the difference by ear. But conventional wisdom is that digital amps sound 'cold and sterile', so many players turn up their noses without actually trying it.

To be sure, there are many solid state and digital amps that fulfill all of the internet cliches attributed to them, but there are also many that don't. The cliches about solid state amps are not the result of choosing transistors over tubes. Rather, they result from the specific design of the circuits, and these design choices are mainly economic in nature.

For example, solid state amps usually employ far more negative feedback than tube amps. This is a design choice that is usually based entirely on circuit stability, as transistors are much less forgiving than tubes about slop in the resistor and capacitor values that set the gain and bias of the individual subcircuits. But too much negative feedback has the effect of making the amp sound more sterile. Of course, it is not an absolute necessity to build this much feedback into the circuit. It is done mainly to keep costs down. It is certainly possible to build a solid state amp with similar amounts of negative feedback as found in a tube amp, and such amps tend to sound far more tubey.

But we humans tend to prefer simple stories to the more complex reality. Most guitar players aren't electrical engineers. They can't read schematics and don't understand circuit design, and it's so simple to just remember the simple rule, "tubes sound warm and transistors sound harsh". Simple, but not exactly accurate. (Oddly, when it comes to pedals, the analogous 'rule' is, "transistors sound warm and tubey (especially when they're germanium), and op-amps sound cold and sterile", which doesn't connect up very well with the amplifier story, but we're all capable of holding contradictory beliefs simultaneously.)

I do think that the sound of an amp and the way it 'feels' are two different things, and that both digital modeling and solid-state designs usually fail to capture the feel of a good tube amp. But that interactivity and responsiveness that people love from tube amps usually has little to do with the tubes. In actuality, it's mostly a function of the interplay between the output transformer and the speaker. Most solid state amps don't have output transformers. This 'feel' could certainly be engineered into a solid state amp. Heck, it could be engineered into a pedal for that matter. Is it worth it? That's up to the individual player. I'm sure it's pretty difficult to market a pedal that changes the feel without changing the sound, but I've seen DIY circuits that are designed for exactly that purpose.

Here's a good read that goes into more detail about some of this stuff.

[MBE]

I didn't believe it was possible until I took a leap of faith on my Kemper Profiler. If I close my eyes and turn around while playing through a guitar cab, I have no way to tell it from a JCM800, or a Tweed Bassman, or whatever profile I'm using. And when recorded or played back through a PA, I have no way of telling it from a superbly mic'd version of the same. They nailed the "feel" as well as the tone.

Tough for me to admit, given that I love all things tube, but I finally found my personal "no compromises" solution, and it's a lot cheaper than the amp collection that I used to have.

[ElCamino]

Originally Posted by Hurricane Bob

whats the point of trying to get tube tone out of transistors? get a tube amp

I've got an awesome tube amp, a Peavey Delta Blues 115. The distortion is dreamy. At least that's what I've read. 15 watts and, living in an apartment, I can't turn it up enough to hear it break up. Guess it's pedals for me.