Beginner Question

[Possible?]

Had posted a reply but not showing up. Trying again.
Thanks for responses - surprised to have any so soon.

I'll buck up and have a local shop check out this guitar. It is a Yamaha FS800. Seller had it in tune and said 'action' was adjusted for playability - whatever that means.

Don't necessarily need to push string to the wood - but when do you and when do you not have to? Is there a chart somewhere someone put together showing when you do and do not have to make string to wood contact? Maybe I could memorize it and work from there. Significant difference in pressure between bringing string to wood vs not bringing string to wood. Last night I got in 5 minutes with just my index finder alone pushing the third string. Two issues I see from that experience: 1) five min per day is not going to get me anywhere with this instrument given that I didn't take up an instrument in school and 2) I've had calluses before, mostly on my feet as an ex-distance runner. They offered some protection for foot rubbing against sneaker. How thick a callus are we talking about here? If even 1/8" thick, pressing a metal string into fingertip is still gonna hurt like heck. I can see how callus would protect against fingers sliding up and down strings, i.e., friction, but can't imagine it eliminating pain from pushing a metal string into an unyielding solid surface like the fret board with your finger.
Not really getting how so many people can play a guitar. I have to be missing something fundamental. Of course, could just be me.

[TiffanyGuitar]

It definitely should not hurt. Your finger tips might be a little sore, but I guess I am weird, I never found it unpleasant. I just played for about 2 hours and my fingers are a little sore but they feel great! I have played for 30 + years. The guitar callouses are not like callouses on your feet. At least mine aren’t! Although I have heard stories about Wes Montgomery having a callous on his thumb that was like a guitar pick so that may have been an exception!!

I am teaching my youngest son to play now and his fingers toughened up in 2 to 3 weeks but he did not experience serious pain as you are describing because my guitars are setup well.

Also it is quite normal to squeeze too hard at first. Eventually your fingers and hand will figure out how to apply enough but not too much pressure. Time, patience, practice and a well setup guitar make all the difference. I also think an occasional live lesson (or time spent with a buddy who knows how to play) is very valuable.

The string touching the fret (the bar thing) is what makes the note. The string really should not be touching the wood fret board. Generally, if the string is touching the wood fret board, you are going to be bending the note out of tune. Practice should be fun playing songs but you should also spend some repetition time practicing making notes and chords sound out with just enough pressure to make them sound. And also how to adjust hand pressure to not make them sound. The guitar is actually a percussive instrument and being able to alternate between the scratchy string noise and a sounding chord with hand pressure is useful and will eventually help to teach your hand the just right pressure.

If you know people who play or have a live lesson or two can help you a lot.

Good luck and keep at it.

Pete

[ssynhorst]

"Set-up" means adjusting the guitar so that every string is near but too near every fret, to about a thousandth of an inch. Nearly every new guitar at any price is not right, the gaps are too high, too hard to play gently.

That requires fixing by a guitar tech, less or more than $100.

Second point: In time your fingers will gain the dexterity to play notes cleanly with minimum pressure. Your callouses will mostly fade away and your comfort and tone will improve. It just takes some some smart determination to work past these early difficulties. If it was easy it would be boring. - Stevo

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by Possible?

Had posted a reply but not showing up. Trying again.
Thanks for responses - surprised to have any so soon.

I'll buck up and have a local shop check out this guitar. It is a Yamaha FS800. Seller had it in tune and said 'action' was adjusted for playability - whatever that means.

Don't necessarily need to push string to the wood - but when do you and when do you not have to? Is there a chart somewhere someone put together showing when you do and do not have to make string to wood contact? Maybe I could memorize it and work from there. Significant difference in pressure between bringing string to wood vs not bringing string to wood. Last night I got in 5 minutes with just my index finder alone pushing the third string. Two issues I see from that experience: 1) five min per day is not going to get me anywhere with this instrument given that I didn't take up an instrument in school and 2) I've had calluses before, mostly on my feet as an ex-distance runner. They offered some protection for foot rubbing against sneaker. How thick a callus are we talking about here? If even 1/8" thick, pressing a metal string into fingertip is still gonna hurt like heck. I can see how callus would protect against fingers sliding up and down strings, i.e., friction, but can't imagine it eliminating pain from pushing a metal string into an unyielding solid surface like the fret board with your finger.
Not really getting how so many people can play a guitar. I have to be missing something fundamental. Of course, could just be me.

Keep in mind the purpose of a fret is to stop the vibrations of the string at a predetermined point. To do that the string has to firmly encounter the fret top. And, correctly done, anything to the left of it cannot make sounds from the vibrating string. You never absolutely have to hit the wood, though most of us often do. If you can figure out how little pressure is needed to do this, there will be two benefits. One is that your fingers will not hurt so much. But also, with time you will be able to play faster and cleaner. I wish I'd practiced this when I was starting.

For any of us, there is a certain amount of pain until you get those calluses, but nothing like you have experienced (unless you happen a person who is super-sensitive to pain). Play less each day each session, working it up longer and longer. Put it down when it hurts. It's supposed to be fun! Maybe play for a few minutes several times a day at first.

Get extra light strings and/or lower your tuning one or two steps. either of these things will make it much easier. Once the hurt is over, you can put heavier strings back on or tune it back to standard pitch. A good setup will make a surprising difference, as others have said - not saying there is anything wrong with yours, but this is well worth looking into.

[Glennwillow]

Hi Possible,

I don't think the string actually has to touch the wood of the fretboard to make a clean sound. The clean sound is made by holding the string over the fretwire. Those of us that have been playing for many years have learned over time whatever that magic formula is for getting a clean sound with minimal pressure.

Something that might help until you develop calluses on your finger tips, which takes 3-4 weeks of regular playing, is artificial callus liquid you can buy called Rock-Tips. This stuff really helps and it was developed by a guitar playing doctor, so it's safe to use. It even helps me sometimes when I end up playing the same thing over and over for 3 hours, tying to get something down in a recording.

Also, having a guitar properly set up for low action can help immensely. It costs maybe $80 to have a technician lower your action for the easiest playability, but those of us on this forum know that a good setup makes all the difference in the world. If the strings are too high, it's really a killer on your fingers, even when you have calluses. Maybe talk to your music store for a recommendation on a good technician.

I hope you will hang in there.

- Glenn

[RP]

Originally Posted by Possible?

...It is a Yamaha FS800. Seller had it in tune and said 'action' was adjusted for playability - whatever that means.

...can't imagine it eliminating pain from pushing a metal string into an unyielding solid surface like the fret board with your finger.
Not really getting how so many people can play a guitar. I have to be missing something fundamental. Of course, could just be me.

1. Action is an individual choice although I'd guess that most players prefer low action. Being "adjusted for playability" frankly sounds like a non-answer answer.

2. Calluses do eliminate most pain from fretting.

3. If you're truly a beginner, you might want to be a little more accepting of the initial part of the learning curve once you get a decent set-up done.

4. Welcome to AGF...

[tbirdman]

I started with online video lessons from Justin Guitar. His first video states that your fingers will hurt and your playing will suck. However,both will improve with time. A setup can help, but you can have the best set up guitar and your fingers will hurt in the beginning. I remember in the beginning the length of practice time was determined by the pain in my fingers. After a month or so that ceased to be the case.

As far as pressing too hard, I think we all try to use a Vulcan death grip, but hopefully you will adjust to just applying the right amount of pressure.

[musicman1951]

I would definitely start with a set-up. I can understand why you would not want to spend another chunk of money on a guitar you just purchased and are having trouble playing, but it could make a huge difference.

I would get a set of silk and steel strings in 11 gauge (maybe even 10's).

Assuming there isn't a gigantic space between the string and the fretboard, you could try a little experiment. Go to around the 5th fret on the high E (thinnest string) and place your finger a little behind the fret. Start with virtually no pressure and keep playing the note with your right hand (pick if you're using one, or finger or thumb - doesn't matter). You will hear a muffled plunk of a sound rather than a clear note. Slowly (but be reasonable, this doesn't have to take 35 seconds) add pressure with your left hand finger until the plunk turns into a note. That should give you an idea of how much pressure is required to play.

There is no need for actual sharp pain in the fingers. You will, like everyone else, need to start with short practice sessions for the first few weeks. Play until it's a little uncomfortable and stop. If it's 5 minutes, it's 5 minutes. You'll find that if you take frequent 10 second breaks before it hurts you will last a little longer. If you keep going until it's seriously painful you may find that the start of the next day's practice doesn't feel much better. It really won't take very long before your sessions start to stretch longer and longer. Be patient.

If you're using a tuner and want to try tuning down a step the strings will be DGCFAD from lowest to highest.

Everything new is difficult. Take every opportunity to be nice to yourself.

Good luck.

[emtsteve]

Originally Posted by tbirdman

I started with online video lessons from Justin Guitar. His first video states that your fingers will hurt and your playing will suck. However,both will improve with time. A setup can help, but you can have the best set up guitar and your fingers will hurt in the beginning. I remember in the beginning the length of practice time was determined by the pain in my fingers. After a month or so that ceased to be the case.

As far as pressing too hard, I think we all try to use a Vulcan death grip, but hopefully you will adjust to just applying the right amount of pressure.

Justin's first few lessons are excellent. And the beginning was tough - I kept thinking to myself - "No way this is too hard". But stick with it, it gets better I promise.

As to your guitar, the Yamaha FS800 is PERFECT for a first guitar. It does sound like you might have received a pat answer that the guitar was "adjusted for playability" so a visit to a good tech is a must. I also agree with the suggestion for dropping down to .11's (the tech will know). If you tell us where you live, someone may be able to point you in the right direction - do not go to Guitar Center.

After you get the guitar set up well, then the amount of pressure needed is just enough to get a clean sound. You will have to just practice and learn what that is. Everything is foreign, and weird, and hard at first, but like I said it gets better you just have to stick with it.

[JKA]

Try this:

Choose a string...any string. Choose a fret...any fret

Now, place your finger on the string just behind the fret you chose and touch the string as lightly as it's possible. Pluck the string and it'll sound dead.

Now, as slowly as it's possible, start pushing the string down while plucking it. As soon as the note rings clear you're pressing as hard as you need to. You'll find with a well set up guitar that very little downward pressure is needed.

Don't grip the neck...just hold it gently. It'll take a bit of practice but you'll get there if you percivere.

If you have a capo, place it just behind the first fret. If you find it easier to press the string down onto the fret, with the capo on, you need to have the slots in the nut filed down a little.

[rmp]

I know it's already been asked

But the first question is what about a "set up?" Especially having the nut slots properly cut which will bring the strings closer to the 1st fret. Action should be low enough all around to not make it quite such a chore.


The other is, any idea what the string gauge is?

For acoustic, usually 12s are the common choice, which once your under way not too bad on the fingers,

But if you want to slide in easy, try a lighter gague for now, maybe go as light as 10s. It wont hurt forever

but the set up, especially as a new player, it's very important to get that right

[phydaux]

OP,

The calluses on my finger tips are not thick at all, and I get no finger tip pain when playing (anymore, lol). We’ve all been there. Power through it. It goes away.

Yamaha makes good stuff, but most sub-$300 guitars are notorious for coming from the factory with horrendous setups. Take it to a reputable guitar store and request a setup. Should cost you ~$50 or so. Totally worth it.

If you are currently using 13 gauge strings then definitely change to 12s. Maybe even 11s.

The white-ish thing at the top of the neck between the neck and the headstock is the nut. The horizontal metal bars on the neck are the frets.

For good tone you want to finger as close to the fret as possible.

[DfwTF]

The best advice has already been given:

1. Light gauge
2. Low action
3. Play close to the FRET!

That last one is a very basic thing that can be forgotten after years of playing. I recently developed basal joint arthritis. Someone suggested lighter grip on the neck and simply get closer to the fret during barre chords. It helps tremendously. It also requires less finger pressure. Give it a try.

[Cameron_Talley]

I found putting some witch hazel on my fingertips after playing helped to manage the pain when I was starting. It will take some time--you just have to push through it.

[tbirdman]

Originally Posted by emtsteve

Justin's first few lessons are excellent. And the beginning was tough - I kept thinking to myself - "No way this is too hard". But stick with it, it gets better I promise.

As to your guitar, the Yamaha FS800 is PERFECT for a first guitar. It does sound like you might have received a pat answer that the guitar was "adjusted for playability" so a visit to a good tech is a must. I also agree with the suggestion for dropping down to .11's (the tech will know). If you tell us where you live, someone may be able to point you in the right direction - do not go to Guitar Center.

After you get the guitar set up well, then the amount of pressure needed is just enough to get a clean sound. You will have to just practice and learn what that is. Everything is foreign, and weird, and hard at first, but like I said it gets better you just have to stick with it.

The best part I thought about Justin Lessons is he built slowly a good foundation although I wish he had spent more time on proper posture. The icing on the cake for me was his structured practice plans which guided me on my practices so they were productive. I also will second his App which it easier to get started playing with the backing tracks from the app.