Powered PA Speakers: Yamaha or QSC?

[arashaw]

Originally Posted by Bobby1note

There's really no "nice way" for me to say this, so here goes,,, I HATE the K-Series boxes.

They are not my first choice but I'm curious why you "hate" them? Seems like you could get the job done just fine with them, did you have a really bad experience with them live or something? Just wondering? I like EVs personally.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by arashaw

They are not my first choice but I'm curious why you "hate" them? Seems like you could get the job done just fine with them, did you have a really bad experience with them live or something? Just wondering? I like EVs personally.

There's a few things I don't like about them actually.
1. the "hyped" power-rating (marketing)
2. the completely useless DEEP* function, and
3. the high-frequency "wave-guide" (or whatever they call it).

I've only had one "personal" demo, where the store clerk hooked up his lap-top to play some recorded music. The very instant he engaged DEEP*, I turned and walked away in disgust. It completely destroyed the clarity of the vocals. This is a serious design drawback IMO. I've also seen plenty of other peoples' demo's while I was visiting my dealer, and found the off-axis response to be dreadful.

Regarding the "wave-guide",,, the K-Series is widely acknowledged as being a short-throw speaker. Not a good choice for outdoor gigs (depending on how much throw you need).

What can you say about the way they're marketed??? This was my first turn-off with the K-series boxes. There's a ton of people out there, who believe the marketing hoopla about "1000watts". (just visit the D.J. Forums). Fact is, they use two identical 500w Class D amp-modules,,, one for the low-frequency driver, and one for the HF driver. What they don't tell you is, that HF driver is a 25w RMS speaker. It's cheaper for QSC to standardize and use the same cheap Class D amp-modules in all their boxes, regardless of driver, because people will believe what they want to believe about the 1000w rating. If you read QSC's specs carefully, you'll notice they never said that it's a "1000w loudspeaker". They say the "amp modules" are 1000w.

Also, I find them inefficient regarding power-consumption. QSC used to show a 7.0amp power-consumption figure,,, but after this rating was openly discussed on some of the pro-sound forums, QSC deleted the 7.0A figure, and now show only the consumption at 1/8th power, which is 2.0 amps (or thereabout.) That may not be a biggie for folks who are running one pair out of a single 120v/15a outlet,,, but it's a real drawback if you're daisy-chaining a bunch of speakers for monitors and FOH.

Regarding EV's; I don't think I've ever heard a bad-sounding EV box. I remember when the JBL PRX-series came out, and I went to audition a pair of 612's against some EV SxA250's, which is a 15" box. The vocal clarity of the EV's was undeniable, and seems to be their "signature" voicing. Excellent sound, but some of the cheaper versions also have issues. Most notably in the ease of scratching the finish, and there were early reports of thermal shut-down issues. This implies (to me anyway), a light-duty box. Mind you, they sound good.

Yamaha; I haven't had a really good demo of the DSR's, just a short demo. I found them "dark" sounding, but, there's no denying the output of the DSR's. I'll have to go back and do a good audition, but I'm just not in the market these days, and the closest dealer is 50 miles away. FWIW, none of the Yamaha boxes sound remotely like the NEXO's which someone mentioned earlier. The NEXO PS and RS boxes are SUPERB. Breath-taking clarity and output level, but we're talking a much more sophisticated level of speaker. Mind you, at $15,000.-$17,000 for the amp/processor module, two mains, and two small subs,,,,it's understandable. I came VERY close to buying a set last winter, until I heard the d&B AudioTechnik Q-7's (Germany), and those are another level up from the NEXO's. Twice the price too. You need to have the right clientele to justify that kind of expense, but boy oh boy, what a treat to listen to boxes of that stature.

DXR's; I haven't looked at those yet. Seems to me they're not a trapezoid box (I may be wrong), and I tend to prefer "traps" for the versatilty (FOH or floor-monitors). I can't comment on the sound, except to say some folks seem to like 'em.

All of my PA speakers are by Yorkville, and to be honest, Yorkville's reputation for toughness, durability and customer-support, was a big factor in that decision. Yorkie subs are also very hard to beat, especially for the price. I've got a pair of Yorkville Elite LS-720P compact subs, and a pair of Elite LS-801P's for the bigger gigs.(brutal output). I've also got eight NX55P's which I use a lot, four Elite EF500PB's, and a pair of Yorkville Unity U15P's (3-way boxes).

Yorkville just recently put out a revised NX55P-2, and their new ParaSource boxes. I haven't listened to either one, but the ParaSource does feature multi-band limiting, which should be a great feature to have when they're being driven hard. (limits without clouding vocals). I've heard the Yorkie ParaLine's, and was kinda meh about them UNTIL I heard them driven HARD,,, and wow, what a surprise those were. The louder they were driven, the better they got.

Now I realize that many of the folks here don't necessarily require some of the points I've mentioned here. That's cool, and if someone's happy with what they're using, good. Small rooms, small crowds, and low-bandwidth demands (no drums/bass/keyboards/synth's) allows a lot of room for product selection.

[jonfields45]

Rating power for a speaker not intended to run routinely with clipping, is quite a challenging game. Even heavy metal has a 5:1 peak to average ratio (10-15 dB for other genres). 1KW unclipped peaks would mean 200 watts continuous RMS, but to spec at 200 watts might imply you only had 40 watts continuous... So maybe a QSC K series is only one to two 100 watt Marshal stacks of sound. Still quite deafening.

In the old days a 1KHz sine wave at 1-5% harmonic distortion run continuously (well presumably long enough to get the amp to a steady state temperature) was the standard and that would not drive a biamped speaker's tweeter at all. Maybe under this test a K series might be 500 watts, but I would be surprised if it could actually sustain it.

As far as 7 amps into a QSC is concerned, that has to be something quite instantaneous to support the 1 KW power claim. Speaker drivers convert most of the energy into heat and only a very small amount into sound. So regardless of the power amp's efficiency that would be half a space heater worth of power and the speaker would be so hot you would need to stand back.

All of these modern powered speakers are plenty powerful and rated roughly the same way as enforced by engineering tempered with marketing.

Jon

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by Bobby1note

DXR's; I haven't looked at those yet. Seems to me they're not a trapezoid box (I may be wrong), and I tend to prefer "traps" for the versatilty (FOH or floor-monitors). I can't comment on the sound, except to say some folks seem to like 'em.

I use my DXR 10's for stage monitors quite often. They do have a "lay flat" surface.

This comparison is difficult. The two speakers are not night and day, but subtly different - a little like mics. To me, the QSC's are slightly brighter and have a bigger initial "impact" but I suspect might be fatiguing.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Rating power for a speaker not intended to run routinely with clipping, is quite a challenging game. Even heavy metal has a 5:1 peak to average ratio (10-15 dB for other genres). 1KW unclipped peaks would mean 200 watts continuous RMS, but to spec at 200 watts might imply you only had 40 watts continuous... So maybe a QSC K series is only one to two 100 watt Marshal stacks of sound. Still quite deafening.

In the old days a 1KHz sine wave at 1-5% harmonic distortion run continuously (well presumably long enough to get the amp to a steady state temperature) was the standard and that would not drive a biamped speaker's tweeter at all. Maybe under this test a K series might be 500 watts, but I would be surprised if it could actually sustain it.

As far as 7 amps into a QSC is concerned, that has to be something quite instantaneous to support the 1 KW power claim. Speaker drivers convert most of the energy into heat and only a very small amount into sound. So regardless of the power amp's efficiency that would be half a space heater worth of power and the speaker would be so hot you would need to stand back.

All of these modern powered speakers are plenty powerful and rated roughly the same way as enforced by engineering tempered with marketing.

Jon

I talked to an EE just a few weeks back, regarding the efficiency of Class D amps, and he said they're roughly 85-90%. Now, that only relates to the amp-module itself, and not the speaker it's driving. With a 500wRMS amp-module, feeding a 25w driver,,,some serious amp-limiting has to be going on. There's nothing "wrong" with that per se,,, as most HF compression drivers are in this range anyway (35-75wRMS),,, it's just the "inference" that the K-series are "1000w" that bothers me.

That said, power-ratings alone, do not determine how loud a loudspeaker is,, loudspeaker "efficiency" does. (usually expressed as xxxdB@ 1w/ 1m). This allows you to calculate Max SPL,,,but,,, it won't tell you how much of that Max SPL is actually useable.(distortion). Most M.I. grade loudspeakers that we generally discuss here (under $1k.), state their Max SPL specs in terms of theoretical or calculated peak values,,,, not necessarily "measured",,,, and no reference whatsoever to linearity.(distortion level at rated output). That's what separates the M.I. grade loudspeakers from the concert-grade boxes like the NEXO's and d&B AudioTechnik I mentioned earlier. At first glance, the published specs of those loudspeakers don't appear to be inherently different from a lot of the M.I. grade boxes,,, but in actuality, the published specs of the concert-grade boxes are "measured wide-band" instead of "calculated peak".(useable undistorted SPL)

That said; since most of the folks here are running 1 or 2 mains for acoustic applications in smaller rooms (no subs required/ low dynamic range of vox and guitar), it often doesn't matter that much. Where it really starts to matter is when the dynamic-range requirement is increased along with SPL.(ie; "rock music" w/bass/drums/keys/synths,etc). That basically explains why we'll see so many divergent views of the same loudspeaker; one solo or duo acoustic act "loves" box-"X",,, while the next guy (D.J. or rock-band) finds them "harsh" when pushed, etc.

[ceciltguitar]

The pro sound equipment guys at the local music store here are real excited about RCF powered speakers.

[MikeBmusic]

Limited budget here. I may have to 'rush out' for some powered speakers this weekend (place where I am hosting a new open mic may have issues with me using their PA speakers with my mixer).

Any opinions on Alto 12" or 10" powered speakers? Reviews are favorable for both sizes.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by ceciltguitar

The pro sound equipment guys at the local music store here are real excited about RCF powered speakers.

RCF builds some nice loudspeakers,,, and some exceptional ones too.(TT-series for example). There's lots of good sounding boxes out there,,, but it's the application that will determine which speaker is "right" for your needs. Do you need "throw"? Do you need extended bottom-end? Do you need intelligibility above all else? Do you need wide-dispersion? Do you need a box that serves double-duty (FOH or floor-monitor). Do you need a quick turnaround and availability of service and parts in case the box fails, etc. There's almost always trade-offs involved.

Of the few that the OP has selected for consideration, I'd probably opt for the DSR12's,,,(trapezoid) but that's for "my" applications, and based on the recommendations of someone I know and trust(to a point). Personally, I found them "dark" sounding, but that was a very limited audition with pre-recorded music, and no attempt made to EQ the speakers. I'd have to go and give them a listen to determine how much bottom-end they have, without affecting intelligibility. That's important to me for an acoustic-guitar and voice application. What I'd have to look at in more detail is, the rather high cross-over point (1.7kHz) and the effect of having the HPF set at 120Hz with a 24dB per octave slope, which may limit the models of subs you can use. That may not be an issue with my LS-801P and LS720P subs which have a variable low-pass filter(LPF), but might be an issue with subs that have a fixed 100Hz or 90Hz LPF. (quite common).

I did listen very briefly to the EV Live-X(???), and they sounded pretty good, but again, I'd have to look a little more deeply to form an honest opinion.

If I were the OP, I'd add a few more models to his list. (JBL PRX,,Yorkville NX55P-2,, and Yorkville ParaSource, just to name a few. We could however, form a complete thread just on the subject of conducting a proper demo.

[jomaynor]

Originally Posted by Bobby1note

Of the few that the OP has selected for consideration, I'd probably opt for the DSR12's,,,(trapezoid) but that's for "my" applications, and based on the recommendations of someone I know and trust(to a point). Personally, I found them "dark" sounding, but that was a very limited audition with pre-recorded music, and no attempt made to EQ the speakers. I'd have to go and give them a listen to determine how much bottom-end they have, without affecting intelligibility. That's important to me for an acoustic-guitar and voice application. What I'd have to look at in more detail is, the rather high cross-over point (1.7kHz) and the effect of having the HPF set at 120Hz with a 24dB per octave slope, which may limit the models of subs you can use. That may not be an issue with my LS-801P and LS720P subs which have a variable low-pass filter(LPF), but might be an issue with subs that have a fixed 100Hz or 90Hz LPF. (quite common).

Hi, Bobby. My limited experience with the Yamaha DSR112s - a club that I've played at had these as the mains speakers (they also have a good house soundguy, too, which helps) - left me with a very favorable impression of them. When I heard them, they weren't "dark," but they certainly weren't in-your-face either. The closest loudspeaker characteristic similarities that the DSR112 reminds me of is the EV QRX series: slightly recessed, very articulate, and also non-fatiguing on the ears.

Plus, they already have built in power amps and digital signal processing, which is why I think that they are a great value for someone interested in purchasing a high quality PA that is capable of providing good coverage for up to medium sized indoor venues or small outdoor concerts. Cheers.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by jomaynor

Hi, Bobby. My limited experience with the Yamaha DSR112s - a club that I've played at had these as the mains speakers (they also have a good house soundguy, too, which helps) - left me with a very favorable impression of them. When I heard them, they weren't "dark," but they certainly weren't in-your-face either. The closest loudspeaker characteristic similarities that the DSR112 reminds me of is the EV QRX series: slightly recessed, very articulate, and also non-fatiguing on the ears.

Plus, they already have built in power amps and digital signal processing, which is why I think that they are a great value for someone interested in purchasing a high quality PA that is capable of providing good coverage for up to medium sized indoor venues or small outdoor concerts. Cheers.

Yeah, I'd like to hear them "live",,, and to see how they respond to EQ. I only gave the DSR's a brief listen, while browsing in a hi-end pro-audio shop. (SoloTech Montreal). (2 songs at best/pre-recorded music)

I never tried to EQ them (DSR 15's in this case), because I was primarily there to audition some NEXO PS-12's and some d&B AudioTechnik Q7's, and I briefly browsed the showroom while waiting for the sales-rep..

If they (DSR's) sound like the QRX's, that's a heckuva good testimonial.

[nrand]

Originally Posted by ceciltguitar

The pro sound equipment guys at the local music store here are real excited about RCF powered speakers.

My pro sound guy said the same and I ended up buying one of the RCH HD12s for my FOH. He had A/B'd them against the list here plus the JBL PRXs and found them superior for voice. He also pointed out that most of these, except the RCFs have very similar Chinese made amps in them.

[kendallhadden]

I have been using the Yamaha DSR112's for over a year now and I'm still extremely impressed with these speakers. They handle EQ well, are ear-splitting loud and they cover more (dispersion) than any single source speaker I have used in the past. I run them with a pair of Danley TH115 subs and honestly the Danley's can't keep up with the DSR112's as far as output is concerned. I'm a huge fan of RCF, but in my opinion for the money the DSR112's are hard to beat. If I were going to upgrade my mains it would be to Danley SM80s. Those are 3 times the price of the 112's and they are not powered.

[acoustic_woody]

I don't have any experience with the QSC's, but I've been using my Yamaha Club V series 15's for monitors for a few years, and they would work very well as mains. They sound fantastic to my ears.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by kendallhadden

I have been using the Yamaha DSR112's for over a year now and I'm still extremely impressed with these speakers. They handle EQ well, are ear-splitting loud and they cover more (dispersion) than any single source speaker I have used in the past. I run them with a pair of Danley TH115 subs and honestly the Danley's can't keep up with the DSR112's as far as output is concerned. I'm a huge fan of RCF, but in my opinion for the money the DSR112's are hard to beat. If I were going to upgrade my mains it would be to Danley SM80s. Those are 3 times the price of the 112's and they are not powered.

That's quite a testimonial Kendall. Very impressive. The Danley subs are as good as it gets too.

[nrand]

Originally Posted by kendallhadden

I have been using the Yamaha DSR112's for over a year now and I'm still extremely impressed with these speakers. They handle EQ well, are ear-splitting loud and they cover more (dispersion) than any single source speaker I have used in the past. I run them with a pair of Danley TH115 subs and honestly the Danley's can't keep up with the DSR112's as far as output is concerned. I'm a huge fan of RCF, but in my opinion for the money the DSR112's are hard to beat. If I were going to upgrade my mains it would be to Danley SM80s. Those are 3 times the price of the 112's and they are not powered.

I see you are using subs as well as mains , Out of curiosity what kind of music are you playing - solo or band?