singing and playing

[ahinoki]

hey everyone,

this is my first and maybe only post.
so sorry if i break any rules.

i'm a 63 year old lifetime beginner and have been trying for years
to "sing" and play at the same time. the results have been
very bad as my strumming hand will basically "glitich out".
on the first utterance.

i will say i got a wee bit better with sweet home chicago.
but the best song for learning to sapatst is - "long haired country boy"

its the only song that has made me think that it is possible for me
to sing and play at the same time. so give it a go and hopefully
you will be helped as much as i was.

kevin

[BlueStarfish]

Hi Kevin,

You can do it!

Here’s the thing. As you are finding, it’s not really possible to concentrate your mind on singing, and at the same time, playing. Takes too much brainpower and causes the glitching you are experiencing.

So here’s the way around it. First, you have to learn the playing part of the song so well that you can do it with no active brainpower. Like, you can play it with eyes closed while carrying on a conversation with your spouse, and not miss a single beat or chord change, with a rock-steady tempo. Work on this first. You need to get to the point where the playing is handled by the subconscious part of your mind and isn’t taking active processing cycles.

Next, you need to have the singing down. Meaning, you can sing the melody on pitch and in time, with all lyrics memorized, no looking at your lyric sheet. And you need your subconscious mind to be able to do this, which means you can sing the song while driving, while doing the dishes, etc.

Once you have both the playing and the singing on autopilot separately, then it’s just a question of doing them at the same time. Slow the tempo down and keep at it. You’ll get it! Once you get it figured out with even a single song, the others will come easier.

[Glennwillow]

BlueStarfish has given you excellent advice.

You need to know the guitar part so well that you could carry on a conversation while playing the guitar. It needs to be as close to automatic as possible. Then you can concentrate on learning to sing over the guitar part so that your brain doesn't have to do two really hard things at once. When you have the guitar part down super well, then you are doing one easy thing (playing, it's easy because you have practiced it to extremes) and one hard thing (the singing on key).

- Glenn

PS: And welcome to the AGF! I hope you post many times in the future!

[fantex]

Your rhythm can definitely be developed. Here 's a video that may help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXlyjT2iyNY

[rllink]

Most people I've met who have trouble singing and playing are trying to accompany their guitar when they sing instead of the other way around. The guitar is the accompaniment, not the singing.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by rllink

Most people I've met who have trouble singing and playing are trying to accompany their guitar when they sing instead of the other way around. The guitar is the accompaniment, not the singing.

That is a very good point! I'll change my guitar accompaniment arrangements depending on how I feel like singing a song. And those arrangements change over time.

A good place to start is one strum each measure while you sing the song. And then work out how you may develop that backing from there.

I'm just working on Sosban Fach to play at a concert on Wednesday. I have sung the song before with banjo. So now I'm having fun working out how I may accompany myself on guitar. I've tried strumming it and singing it as a pub/rugby song, but I think that I'm going to fingerpicks the backing and sing it as a ballad. I was only asked last Wednesday to take the concert slot this coming week. I have four days to go to work something out...... What could possibly go wrong!

Defiantly, guitar supports vocals - not the other way around. With that approach playing and singing becomes easier to match.

[lowrider]

Originally Posted by rllink

Most people I've met who have trouble singing and playing are trying to accompany their guitar when they sing instead of the other way around. The guitar is the accompaniment, not the singing.

Yes but, the guitar sets the timing, and tiiming is the most important part of the song.

If you have good timing, you can do a lot of things wrong and still sound pretty good. If you have bad timing, you can do everything else well and still sound pretty bad.

To the OP, pick some simple songs that you can strum 1 and 2 and 3 and 4. Get the chords down, and get the timing down. Then start to sing. Keep the timing steady and keep your singing in that time. If you want to start adding embellishments, do it at the end of the line and between verses when you'r not singing.

I went to a vocal coach to get me started. She was the lead singer and guitar player in a power trio. She told me this and it true;

''Nobody cares what you are playing when you're singing''

She's right. Keep it simple while you're singing. Add you fancy stuff when your not singing.

[raysachs]

There are many ways to skin the proverbial cat and this is a particularly recalcitrant cat. But I wouldn't take TOO religiously the idea expressed earlier that you must learn the guitar part down to the T and be bulletproof at it before you ever open your mouth to sing a song. That's one way and I'm sure it can work and clearly has for some (and as great as Glenn is at both the singing and the playing parts, I sure feel funny suggesting you take any idea of his with a grain of salt!). But if that process drives you stark raving mad to the point that you throw the guitar at the wall and never get to singing part, I wouldn't say that's the best approach for you.

I for one never did it that way. And some may point out, however politely, that I'm not the best example of any particular method I might suggest because I'm not much of a singer and decidedly average player. BUT I'm much much better at both than I used to be and the way I did it was just to feel my way through with both at the same time. I started out a terrible rhythm player and a beyond terrible singer. And I slowly got better at playing the accompaniment but was still a god-awful singer. Not at feeling how the phrasing worked with the guitar part, but just the singing even REMOTELY in tune. I've eventually gotten somewhat better at the singing part, but the process of putting the singing and the guitar playing together has gotten pretty natural feeling for me and it happened kind of intuitively and iteratively, just trying stuff to see what worked and eventually it came together.

Now when I approach a new song, I absolutely don't learn the guitar part cold and then later start trying to sing to it. I learn 'em together, and get a feel for them together. And again, I may be a strumming / singing advertisement for how NOT to do it, but that's how I do it and I do it well enough now to enjoy the living daylights out of it despite my shortcomings. As with anything about making music, it comes down to putting in the time and the effort and trying stuff until you find what works for you. There's no one way.

And I'd also really echo lowrider's immediately previous comment about timing. Good timing can cover a lot of sins, and bad timing is the king of all sins and is really tough to overcome, no matter what else you have going for you. I think I always had reasonably good timing and that may be ALL I have going for me, but it may be why this has always been really fun for me, no matter how bad I was at various parts of it through the years.

-Ray

[H165]

I think just about everyone has this problem at the beginning. I had to go very basic. Just one verse or one chorus from a very simple song for starters.

I ended up writing the lyrics out, and then I put a down-strum arrow above each word that was sung on a down-strum.

You can make your down strum marks while watching or playing along with a performance on YouTube. This is a basic aid you can refer back to over and over once it's done. From there you can start filling in the other strums or expand further into the song.

One song at a time. Don't overwhelm yourself. After a while, things begin to click together.

[Robin, Wales]

What folks have said about the importance of timing I also believe to be true. Timing sort of carries the listener along - so timing mistakes are more obvious than missed notes.

It's good to practise playing and singing to a metronome. But you don't have to be "metronimic" with your singing as long as you come back to the beat.

I'm not great at either playing or singing - just a "campfire" musician. But I do work on getting that separation between guitar and voice. I sometimes record my practice to see what I can improve on. The video above was from a practice session. The guitar keeps strict time (or as close to strict as I can manage) but I'm quite free with my singing phrasing. To be able to get this separation, working with a metronome really helps.

I find that if Im fingerpicking an accompaniment then it's even easier to keep strict time and separate my vocals from the guitar.

I started singing with guitar about 5 years ago. It was a real struggle at first, but over time it has got easier for me to sing and play guitar accompaniment.

[Deliberate1]

OP, I wonder if the way that you are approaching the blending of vocal and playing is optimal for you.

You and I are not far apart in age or experience. Five years ago, at 63, I bought my first guitar, after I wrote my first song. I did not find it difficult to combine the two because the music has a well-trod I IV V progression.

But since that time, I have written many other songs, and have learned a few by others as well. Whether mine, or from another's hand, I find it most effective for me to learn both the guitar and vocal part at the very same time. They both become ingrained simultaneously and dependently. I have never experienced the disconnect you do. And perhaps that is because, for me, the most natural way to present the song is with both vocals and guitar. In fact, it is much easier for me to remember lyrics when I have the guitar under me. And find it easier to play the song if I am also singing it. Because that is how I learned it. In this way, the two reinforce and "remind" each other.

We are all wired differently. While this approach works for me, it may not for you. But experimenting with different approaches may bring you the answer, and musical pleasure, you are searching for.
Best of luck.
David

[ghostnote]

You have to relax. Nobody can sing authentically if they’re uptight and/or unsure about part of the tune. So of course you have to know the music and the lyrics cold. It’s like when you’re driving in the car and a song you like comes on the radio: you’re probably going to sing along naturally, comfortably, because you know the song already. So, I’m in the camp of learn to play the song first, then sing later. But that should happen soon - don’t wait weeks before starting the vocals. In my own case, I start singing a new song on the third or fourth time through the changes, just to get an idea of how it should feel. I’ve been singing lead vocals for many years in bands while playing rhythm guitar, and I’m no musical genius. Eventually you’ll find yourself adding all the little nuances that you want in the vocals -it gets easier and more comfortable and it’s very rewarding when it turns out well.

[Golffishny]

When you first practice a song mute the strings with your left hand and strum or pick a few strings for timing and sing along. After you get the singing right add the chords or a simple bass line. Little steps.

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by BlueStarfish

Hi Kevin,

You can do it!

Here’s the thing. As you are finding, it’s not really possible to concentrate your mind on singing, and at the same time, playing. Takes too much brainpower and causes the glitching you are experiencing.

So here’s the way around it. First, you have to learn the playing part of the song so well that you can do it with no active brainpower. Like, you can play it with eyes closed while carrying on a conversation with your spouse, and not miss a single beat or chord change, with a rock-steady tempo. Work on this first. You need to get to the point where the playing is handled by the subconscious part of your mind and isn’t taking active processing cycles.

Next, you need to have the singing down. Meaning, you can sing the melody on pitch and in time, with all lyrics memorized, no looking at your lyric sheet. And you need your subconscious mind to be able to do this, which means you can sing the song while driving, while doing the dishes, etc.

Once you have both the playing and the singing on autopilot separately, then it’s just a question of doing them at the same time. Slow the tempo down and keep at it. You’ll get it! Once you get it figured out with even a single song, the others will come easier.

I think what BlueStarfish is saying here is, in part, get that muscle memory down. Practice strumming enough so that you no longer have think about keeping it going. And practice chord changes so they come without actively thinking about them, or worrying about arranging your fingers correctly, THEN you can devote your mind to singing.

It's a matter of time and keeping after it, training your fingers to do what they need to do without having to open up a part of your mind that can be better used for other things (such as words...)

[SongwriterFan]

You may be suffering from what I call "being raised Southern Baptist" . . . where the music for the hymns was in perfect synchronization with the words. Or as one person told me . . I'm just "too white".

When the rhythm of the music gets too "weird" for me (when compared to the lyrics), I have a hard time playing and singing at the same time. I've found certain rhythms and picking patterns work best for me, so that's always how my songs end up, it seems (there are some exceptions).

Trying to learn the guitar part separate from the lyrics helps to some extent (for me), but when the two parts are too dissimilar . . . well, there's a reason I was an engineer and not a musician.

But now that I'm retired and trying music (original, not covers) for a living, maybe I'll see some improvement?