The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 09-15-2022, 01:10 PM
Bob Womack's Avatar
Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
Guitar Gourmet
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Between Clever and Stupid
Posts: 25,673
Default I hate it when it does that!

Tuesday my co-producer and I were scheduled to take a very scratch rough draft from our songwriter/artist and develop it into a finished "proof-of-concept" for the arranger to work from. This is a lovely little Latin ballad, sung in Spanish, so I was asked to bring in my classical guitar (2006 Cordoba 55R) to the studio and provide appropriate accompaniment. I played the artist demo track for my wife and she was excited that I'd be able to create nice work around the artist's voice.

We started at 8am laying up the parts - first a blocky 4/4 run of the chords hitting on the quarters. Once we got a decent rhythm track we added strongly strummed chordal accents to the build and peak of the song. Marvelous.

After lunch we added leads at the head, at one turnaround, and at the end. They were based upon the main vocal hook. Next, we added an analog Moog bass and then built a simple, quiet drum kit. This is supposed to be a quiet ballad, so we didn't make it complicated or obtrusive. By four thirty I was done with a rough mix and we were satisfied. I took it home.

My wife came in, listened, said, "Oh, no! That wasn't what I had envisioned at all. I was thinking more of string pads for to carry the rhythm with no bass, and with you doing call and response guitar fills against the vocals." I've come to respect her opinion on my production work and playing. And you know, I think she might be right.

Well, that might just be an entire day of work down the drain! However, that is the price of doing trial runs and prototypes.

Bob
__________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring

THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-15-2022, 03:39 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,642
Default

You are so very wise to be able to accept her critique and know that she might have valid points. It is very hard for the single artist to see the Forest Through the Trees.

Working by myself it sometimes takes years for me to understand what I really need to do. Heck, I have been working on some songs for a total of 8 years & I am still not quite finished. I have hundreds of hours into just one intro to one song. It is a long intro granted, but I am constantly changing my mind about little things in it.

Time is the price all of us have to pay for our creative endeavors. While it might seem as it is wasted time, in reality it is just the road you had to take first. I think you know what I mean? Sometimes it is not about right or wrong..it is about the direction we think we must go. And the only way to really find out if it is indeed the right direction, is to travel it.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-15-2022, 04:26 PM
Pura Vida's Avatar
Pura Vida Pura Vida is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Sacramento, CA & Tamarindo, Costa Rica
Posts: 3,755
Default

Sorry for the time lost, but it's often good to get a trusted perspective, so it may save you in the long run.
__________________
"It's only castles burning." - Neil Young
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-15-2022, 04:51 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Kirkland, WA USA
Posts: 2,007
Default

I wish I could count the times I've gone down a dead-end rabbit hole while composing/arranging/recording in mere days.

It's awesome when you have someone to tell you when you're way off course.

Sometimes our confidence, experience and 'toolkits' HELP us create; and sometimes they HINDER us.
__________________
-Gordon

1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway
1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway
2006 Larrivee L03-R
2009 Larrivee LV03-R
2016 Irvin SJ cutaway
2020 Irvin SJ cutaway (build thread)
K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter


Notable Journey website
Facebook page

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-15-2022, 05:54 PM
H165 H165 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woods; OC, CA
Posts: 2,728
Default

Quote:
However, that is the price of doing trial runs and prototypes.
Actually, that is the value (and probably the whole purpose) of doing trial runs and prototypes.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-15-2022, 09:38 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,421
Default

The bright spot here is that you are able to let go of your vision enough to see someone else's vision...and put ego aside to say "yours might be better".

And...it's never a loss. Something good will come out of the work you put into the other version. Maybe not immediately, but eventually.
__________________
-Steve

Too many acoustic & electric guitars, basses, mandolins, violins, dulcimers, trumpets & percussion instruments to list.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-16-2022, 04:25 PM
Bob Womack's Avatar
Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
Guitar Gourmet
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Between Clever and Stupid
Posts: 25,673
Default

Thanks for your kind comments, folks. I contacted my co-producer and told him that my wife thought we had gone a wrong direction and I agreed with her. After thinking about it, he agreed as well.

Today a client cancelled so I took the classical guitar back in and played call-and-response leads as my wife suggested. When I finished the overdubs my co-producer dropped in took a listen. He was delighted! We made a few tweaks to the drums and then exported for the key arranger.

So, all's well that ends well!

Bob
__________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring

THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-16-2022, 06:36 PM
Bob Womack's Avatar
Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
Guitar Gourmet
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Between Clever and Stupid
Posts: 25,673
Default

I guess I should also mention that I changed mics for this round. We had been working with my partner's favorite mic, Lauten Audio's flagship LT-386 Eden. That is a large diaphragm condenser, a development of the U-47. This particular guitar has lots of body, interesting upper-mids and a gentle, pretty upper end. Due to the sitka top, the mids can be a little clanky to my ears. The Eden was basically emphasizing everything wrong about the guitar, leaving it with a tubby, clanky, plasticky sound.

For this round I trotted out an AKG C451B small diaphragm condenser. I remembered that this mic has worked quite well with this particular guitar in the past. Due to its presence peak the mic is brassy, but the tilt occurs at a frequency that de-emphasizes the clank and emphasizes the pretty high end better. It was instantly more pleasing to my ears and to my partner's. In fact, he was quite impressed by it.

The other thing that bears mentioning is that I brought home a rush mix to my wife this afternoon and she loved it. So, success all around.

Bob
__________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring

THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-16-2022, 06:57 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,642
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
I guess I should also mention that I changed mics for this round. We had been working with my partner's favorite mic, Lauten Audio's flagship LT-386 Eden. That is a large diaphragm condenser, a development of the U-47. This particular guitar has lots of body, interesting upper-mids and a gentle, pretty upper end. Due to the sitka top, the mids can be a little clanky to my ears. The Eden was basically emphasizing everything wrong about the guitar, leaving it with a tubby, clanky, plasticky sound.

Bob
Interesting information. I have a Lauten Atlantis. which ..which is the Fet version of your Eden. Sounds very nice on voice. The Extra large capsule (38 mm) makes the voice very smooth sounding.

So very interesting how one mic can work so well in one area and not work in another. How far away was the mic placed from the guitar? And I assume it was in Cardiod?

I have heard so many people speak so highly of the Eden. Our very own AGF member, Sasquatchian, has two of them I believe.

What makes this your partner's favorite mic?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-16-2022, 09:32 PM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,829
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
"Oh, no! That wasn't what I had envisioned at all. I was thinking more of string pads for to carry the rhythm with no bass, and with you doing call and response guitar fills against the vocals."
Is your wife a musician as well? That sort of musically precise description really nails the idea. Not many lay-persons can articulate a musical idea that precisely. Kudos to her, for being able to communicate the idea, and to you, for being smart enough to go with it!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-17-2022, 07:16 AM
Bob Womack's Avatar
Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
Guitar Gourmet
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Between Clever and Stupid
Posts: 25,673
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
So very interesting how one mic can work so well in one area and not work in another.
Despite hype to the contrary in sales literature, that is the way all mics are. We've got over two hundred mics in the mic closet and I've used most of them. They all have a purpose and have hidden talents as well.
Quote:
How far away was the mic placed from the guitar? And I assume it was in Cardiod?
The mics were both about ten inches away, aimed at the joint between neck and body, and yes, both were in cardioid mode. The Lauten was in forward character mode. We also used the Lauten mic for the female soprano vocalista where it shown, wonderfully. We started the vocal process auditioning our Neumann U-47 and Neuman TLM-170, and the Lauten, side by side. I compared the three and frankly would have been happy with any one of them. My partner wanted to use his Lauten. I've been at this long enough that my ego is beginning to moderate. Why not let him use it?
Quote:
I have heard so many people speak so highly of the Eden. Our very own AGF member, Sasquatchian, has two of them I believe.

What makes this your partner's favorite mic?
Well, it is similar to the U-47 but it offers more features and doesn't require a mortgage to purchase. To be honest, I suspect that there is also a certain amount of the old, "I just personally spent a mint on this mic and I'm in love with it," thing. I'm the old crusty guy who has used so many mics in so many applications that he feels like there are few or no bad mics... just bad applications of mics. I've used large and small diaphragm condensers on the "guitar in a combo" scenario and I just seem to land on the small ones more often. I think the AKFG was just a better mic for this particular guitar and application. I'm not speaking ill of the Lauten at all. It's a lovely mic.

Bob
__________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring

THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-17-2022, 08:32 AM
Bob Womack's Avatar
Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
Guitar Gourmet
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Between Clever and Stupid
Posts: 25,673
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
Is your wife a musician as well? That sort of musically precise description really nails the idea. Not many lay-persons can articulate a musical idea that precisely. Kudos to her, for being able to communicate the idea, and to you, for being smart enough to go with it!
She is a classically-trained choral first soprano, having sung in chorus, madrigals, and multiple adult schola cantora. That means she sight-reads and sight-sings music, and does so like you or I would read English. In her senior year, 1978, she earned her way to New Jersey Allstate Choir and all-regional first soprano, in a state where first-rate sopranos are a dime a dozen. She continued performing in college, where I snapped her up. She's got a piccolo soprano range, meaning additional range above the traditional soprano. She might have translated those skills into a career in film scoring up in New York, where the field was still in its infancy, had she not pursued her dream, nursing, and thrown in her lot with a scallywag like me.

She has followed my work ever since we married and has learned the lingo to respond to my endless drivel.

Bob
__________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring

THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-17-2022, 04:11 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,642
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
I'm the old crusty guy who has used so many mics in so many applications that he feels like there are few or no bad mics... just bad applications of mics.
Bob
As I continually note, you always have such wisdom to impart to AGF recording.
Please keep the info coming. It will always be put to good use.

There is no bad, only different applications = applies to most everything. Rarely is there such a thing as a bad traditional archery bow. They all can hit the bulls eye. The difference is that some shoot quieter. Some shoot smoother(which helps you shoot more accurately). Some shoot faster. Some feel better in each of our individual hands(meaning the bow is more of a pleasure to hold and comes up to aim more balanced). But the bottom line is most all of them shoot straight. It is just a matter of which one works the best for you.

As a previous custom knife maker of some formidable reputation I am often asked which steel is best. My answer is; there is no such thing as best, only what works for the intended application. Some steels are made from chopping. Some are made to retain their edge longer.

And even further, most bows can be tuned to shoot better. Using the correct arrow spine, the correct brace height, the correct number of bow string strands...can make all the difference in the world in the performance of the bow. And for steels, there are always ways to make each steel work differently than intended. *Is this not the same as mic distance and angle? Room Treatment? And picking the guitar and the style in which its master plays?.With modifications to playing style(shooting style, Steel usage) you can usually make things work well.

However for a person of little means, I must think in the one or two of the = "best mics for the intended job". I must also come to grip that most likely my opinion will change with time. As I myself change with time.

It always comes back to this: What we think will work best, and what we really need, are often two different things. Too bad there is no way for me to know that difference from the beginning. Sure would save myself a lot of money!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-18-2022, 11:02 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,421
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
She is a classically-trained choral first soprano, having sung in chorus, madrigals, and multiple adult schola cantora. That means she sight-reads and sight-sings music, and does so like you or I would read English. In her senior year, 1978, she earned her way to New Jersey Allstate Choir and all-regional first soprano, in a state where first-rate sopranos are a dime a dozen. She continued performing in college, where I snapped her up. She's got a piccolo soprano range, meaning additional range above the traditional soprano. She might have translated those skills into a career in film scoring up in New York, where the field was still in its infancy, had she not pursued her dream, nursing, and thrown in her lot with a scallywag like me.

She has followed my work ever since we married and has learned the lingo to respond to my endless drivel.

Bob

That's a coincidence. My wife is a classically trained soprano as well. A 1st soprano who specialized in early music & German lieder. Her voice is too light for opera, but perfect for the chamber music she prefers.

She helps me out on a lot of my projects. I enlist her for BGVs all the time. She's able to switch gears & be more contemporary sounding when needed. As I'm sure you know, not all classically trained singers are adept at that.
__________________
-Steve

Too many acoustic & electric guitars, basses, mandolins, violins, dulcimers, trumpets & percussion instruments to list.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-19-2022, 03:45 AM
Bob Womack's Avatar
Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
Guitar Gourmet
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Between Clever and Stupid
Posts: 25,673
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DupleMeter View Post
That's a coincidence. My wife is a classically trained soprano as well. A 1st soprano who specialized in early music & German lieder. Her voice is too light for opera, but perfect for the chamber music she prefers.
She helps me out on a lot of my projects. I enlist her for BGVs all the time. She's able to switch gears & be more contemporary sounding when needed. As I'm sure you know, not all classically trained singers are adept at that.
Oh, yeah, I understand on both accounts. My wife also has the light lyric voice. She also started out without the pop chops but spent several years singing in Praise & Worship bands and developed them.

Bob
__________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring

THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website)
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=