Newbie CF questions

[Spkey]

To make a long story short, I recently sold my guitar and I am looking to replace it with a cf acoustic guitar. From what have I read so far it seems cf is unaffected by humidity and temperature. Living in AZ the desert humidity was a constant battle. I want something which is durable, low maintenance and sounds good.

What would be a good new guitar for under $1200?

What about Klos cf guitars?

Thanks,
Spencer

[jricc]

My experience with my Rainsongs, (have only one now, a CH-OM) they are impervious to the elements. I still wouldn't leave it in a car all day in 100 degree weather, but they do not react to humidity and cold.

The Klos guitars have been getting some good reviews. However, they do have a wood neck, so not all CF.

Hope this helps.

[Captain Jim]

Hi Spencer - welcome aboard. This sub-forum is a great place to learn about carbon fiber guitars. You will get some facts and some opinions here - often stated as the same.

Not a of discussion here about the Klos guitars, probably due to their use of wood in the neck (opinion). There are plenty of other good CF makers (fact), but the entry level guitars are stretching your budget. You can also check the classifieds here - occasionally a good used CF will come up, but they don't last long.

RainSong has a CH line that starts just a bit over your budget. Journey's OF660 or RT660 will be pretty close to the top of your budget. Those are generally favorably reviewed here.

If you can stretch your budget, the other brands to look at would be: Emerald, Blackbird (e-koa), Composite Acoustics (Peavey), and McPherson.

My wife and I travel quite a bit, and my Emeralds have gone from the humid Gulf Coast to the Pacific Northwest to the desert Southwest; coast to coast, border to border. Carbon fiber isn't just for traveling or changing climates, though - it is a great sound.

Good luck with your search - it will be worth the effort and cost to get one of these guitars that play and sound great, AND will laugh at your lack of humidity.

[121]

Originally Posted by Spkey

To make a long story short, I recently sold my guitar and I am looking to replace it with a cf acoustic guitar. From what have I read so far it seems cf is unaffected by humidity and temperature. Living in AZ the desert humidity was a constant battle. I want something which is durable, low maintenance and sounds good.

What would be a good new guitar for under $1200?

What about Klos cf guitars?

Thanks,
Spencer

Here is an excellent deal on a used Emerald X7.


https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...hlight=Emerald

[Earl49]

New, the best deal out there is the Rainsong CH (composite hybrid) series, and they start at around $1350 w/o pickup, from a former AGF sponsor located in Los Angeles. That used Emerald X7 looks like a really good deal too. On occasion you might see other higher-series Rainsong guitars appear used at your price point, but they don't linger long. For example, I found a classic series DR-1000 a few years back for $900 and bought it that same day for a friend who desperately wanted one, and who paid me back over a few months. Another friend got his WS-1000 from an estate sale for ~$1100 about three years ago.

The uninitiated often think of carbon fiber guitars as "cheap plastic" but nothing could be further from the truth. CF is an expensive material, and also challenging to work with. So anyone that bothers with CF at all will build a quality instrument. Your budget is really tight to get into this game, but your instincts are good. The Sam Ash store in Glendale usually has a couple of Rainsong guitars in stock that you could try for yourself, if you are anywhere near there (you mentioned Arizona).

I've never seen a Klos in person, but anything that isn't 100% composite kinda defeats the purpose, eh?

If you are looking for a travel guitar, the Journey OF-660 gets lots of love around here. https://www.laguitarsales.com/index....iant-case.html

[RP]

Spencer: I'd be looking at a Rainsong CH-OM http://www.rainsong.com/concert-hybrid/chom.html.....

[AZLiberty]

There are five or six main builders of CF guitars these days, the market is starting to get crowded:


Rainsong is the largest. Their guitars are "traditional" in that the sized are what you would expect. OM, Dread, Jumbo etc. Their Parlor is an 0 size (like a Larrivee Parlor) and the Windsong is a GA/0000 size.

Emerald is in Ireland and is direct order only. (they used to have dealers a few years back). The guitars are molded, one piece, so they have built in arm bevels and such. Non-traditional shapes but very cool. They also had effectively had two large price increases this year. That prices new ones well out of your range, but used ones do pop up.

Peavy/Composite Acoustics makes (made?) several. You don't hear much about them these days. They made a lot of Dreadnoughts and a travel size guitar called the cargo.

Journey is a newer player. Their main claim to fame is making guitars with removable necks for travel. However, if you don't need that, they have a new Roadtrip model which is a bit cheaper with a fixed in place neck.

Blackbird is transitioning to a new material called e-koa. I believe it is a linen blend in an epoxy matrix. Warmer sounding than Carbon Fiber. I have played a few, they are quite nice.

McPherson is now making a CF guitar called the Sable. It's about 3x your price range though.


Of all the manufacturers, Rainsong is by far the easiest to find and try. You don't say where in AZ you are located. Sam Ash (West Valley) usually has a few Rainsongs, and Rainbow in Tucson is a Rainsong dealer as well. Last time I was there they had the full range of the new CH series.

The Phoenix Craigslist has an Emerald X-20 for $1500, and a Composite Acoustics Dread for $1600. If I hand not just recently spent money on a new Rainsong that Emerald would be awfully tempting.


Otherwise, The Journey Roadtrip or Rainsong's new CH series (available in Parlor, 000, and WS sizes) are the most affordable offerings right now.

I think it would be really hard to go wrong with a Rainsong CH-OM or CH-WS. These "list" for $1350, but that's MAP, and you should be able to get 10-15% off of those. Other folks in the forum have had success in getting Musician's Friend to allow them the 10 or 15% off coupon.

[kramster]

Az and Carbon Fiber guitars....brilliant...

[JasonA]

There does seem to be an awful lot of Zonies in here...

[BT55]

I have an Emerald X20 and a Rainsong H-OM. They are both great guitars. If I had to pick one it would be the Emerald. If you could pickup the used X20 for $1500 in Phoenix you could not go wrong!

[casualmusic]

Originally Posted by Spkey

To make a long story short, I recently sold my guitar and I am looking to replace it wi
th a cf acoustic guitar. From what have I read so far it seems cf is unaffected by humidity and temperature. Living in AZ the desert humidity was a constant battle. I want something which is durable, low maintenance and sounds good.

What would be a good new guitar for under $1200?

What about Klos cf guitars?

Thanks,
Spencer

Hi Spencer.

The information above from very knowledgeable people is a great summary of carbon fibre guitars.

May I help focus it from the perspective of another
beginner who is happy with one or two nice guitars?

Sorry the list is long but I would have liked this info.

I started learning guitar three years ago with the goal of playing and singing with others at song circles, RV campsites and jams at outdoor festivals.

My regular size wood guitar is great for playing with others, and I plan to replace my small CF travel guitar that is way too quiet.

Was able to play five models and some hybrids at local stores.

Liked them all, found the basic black a bit plain looking, and gasped at prices.

The regular size models tried were CA GX, McPherson "Kevin Michael", Ovation hybrids. Small models were CA Cargo, McPherson Traveller, Rainsong P14.

CF advantages are great for Arizona, but are not really useful in our moderate climate. I picked up a Cargo at a store relocation clearance sale for summer car travel.

This week will try the Rainsong CH-WS, CH-OM (and CH-PA) at a local store and may buy one. From the specs and reviews they would have been high on my list if available last year.

Observations:

1. CF guitars are premium priced ($1200-1500 entry, $2000+, $3000+), and premium quality to justify the price to buyers.

The prices are based on expensive materials (CF fabric almost $100 per square yard/meter), precision metal molds durable enough to make thousands of guitar parts, first world wages, and low production volumes compared to development and start-up costs.

2. CF guitars are indeed durable against low and high humidity.

And resistant to summer heat. Data sheets for the carbon/epoxy materials and epoxy adhesives borrowed from aerospace tech say 250+ *F limit, whereas vehicles heat up to 140-160* (?) in the summer sun. *Follow the warranty instructions*.

3. CF guitars sound like good guitars but carbon has a tonal range a bit (not hugely) different from wood. Just like each combination of guitar woods has a slightly different tonal range ie spruce/rosewood, spruce/mahogany, spruce/maple etc.

Try a few CF and if you like the tone no need to obsess about "woody" or "Martin" or "Taylor" sound because CF will naturally sound more carbony than woody. Choose the sound you like.

CF makers adjust guitar tone by varying the materials and construction.

Rainsong Guitars offers many versions based on the same set of molds; their recent CH series is much more affordable and the description indicates they want to attract working musicians who need to play outdoors.

4. Like other guitars, tone can be adjusted a bit by changing string type and weight. My little CF is fussy about strings that will sing and those that sound muffled or shrill.

5. The sound volume produced by CF is similar to the same size wood guitars.

If this will be your only guitar choose one that is loud enough.

If unable to try a CF locally, the loudness of equiv size wood guitars is a good guide (I found CF just a bit quieter at each size). Regular size wood guitar sound boxes are approx 19" x 15" x 4.5" +/- 1/2". Your D-18 is about 20" x 16" x 5"?

6. From reading AGF I know some users are concerned with neck width and length. If important to you check specs and options.

As a beginner I have very few settled preferences and am happy to adjust hand and body positions.

7. CF attractiveness ranges from a bit plain to rather dazzling.

Carbon fibre fabric is black and data sheets specify a UV resistant top coat.

This means that most CF guitars are plain black because of the fabric, with a clear top coat that highlights the fabric weave or a solid black top coat.

À few makers offer tinted or solid colours (and Emerald Guitars offers wood veneers). The colour options range from $50 for Journey Guitars to hundreds for others.

I find wood guitars naturally attractive and needed to adjust to the plainer CF look.

8. Each CF guitar maker has a range of models, features and sales channel. Descriptions and specs are on websites.

9. Availability in guitar stores is sparse because annual production is less than 5000 CF guitars compared to 200,000 premium wood guitars.

Awareness of CF is low and many buyers have to rely on reviews rather than tryouts.

Stores carry few models and back orders will take a few weeks. Emerald Guitars only sells by mail order and build to order with approx 4 months lead time.



I'll stop now. Enjoy your search.

.

[DebbieE]

I just bought a Rainsong CH-WS with a 20% discount special from Musicians Friend and I really love it. I think there's at least one dealer that will match their prices too.

I've got it hanging on my wall in my guitar room with not one worry about humidifying or not.
I don't think I'd give up my wood guitars though but for a no worry guitar the CH-WS really fits the bill.

[MiG50]

+1 on the Rainsong Concert Hybrid (CH) series. Incredible value in the CF world. I own a CH-WS1000NS and an older, discontinued model (Shorty) that is similar to the current CH-OM1000NS. Traditional guitar shape and size, space-age materials and engineering, amazing tone, impervious to climate, always ready to play (and usually in perfect tune!). Can't beat it for the money.

[jdinco]

Another Zonie here....watch for a used Emerald X20. You should be able to find an owner here in AZ that would let you play theirs. If you gotta have new...the RS CH series is it.

[kramster]

Originally Posted by jdinco

Another Zonie here.. You should be able to find an owner here in AZ that would let you play theirs.

I have heard of such things actually happening...just sayin'.