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  #91  
Old 03-08-2018, 12:58 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
Of course that comment was to make a point, specifically this one...

One opinion does not constitute consensus, even when that opinion is from an experienced builder. Neither does having done something many times automatically make a person more right than someone who has done a thing fewer times. There are other experienced builders who believe the rabbet cuts and inlay around the edges do affect tone. I noted that in a previous post. I come down on the side of “some effect” not “better or worse”. Regardless, I’m willing to listen to other opinions. I don’t automatically call for cutting off debate as soon as someone weighs in with a response that suits me.
Todd, I'm sorry if I've come across as more strident or vociferous than usual on this thread. Your mention of the rabbet cut for a purfling channel is interesting. If that's something that does affect the sound, then other purfling such as herringbone trim should have a similar affect.

I guess what sparked my (mild but undeniable) indignation over the whole idea of abalone purfling "improving" the sound of a guitar is that it's a fairly blatant, self-serving sort of thing, especially if the guitar manufacturer can convince potential buyers that thirty dollars worth of abalone is worth paying thousands of dollars extra for a guitar.

In the olden days (as in a few years ago,) there WAS more hand labor involved, cutting out all those little pieces and gluing them into place. Now, though, it's literally just a few seconds work gluing pre-sized laminated abalone strips into their channels.

I think John Greven's comments earlier in the thread are valid - maybe I'm just as old school in this regard as he is. If the rabbet cut for the purfling channel does have an impact on the sound, that makes far more sense to me than the abalone doing it. So that possibility that you've raised changes my math on this from being 100% implausible to perhaps 5% plausible, 95% wishful thinking.

That said, even if this theory about the purfling channel changing the tone turns out to be 100% correct, we're still - as Mycroft put it - in "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" territory. Any tonal impact from abalone purfling has got to be exceedingly minor, if it exists at all.

But I think we're in agreement there. As another thoughtful contributor early in the thread wrote, everything in an acoustic guitar contributes to the sound somehow. So I've turned down the dial on my Vociferous-O-Meter®, and will respond more gently on the topic in the future.

Just as I do when I read comments about the supposedly miraculous tonal effects of fancy aftermarket bridge pins. Both subjects set the klaxon howling on my BS-Meter®, but that doesn't mean I have to come howling into the thread and land on it tromping around in hobnail boots.....



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Short version: I remain unconvinced, but I always appreciate your comments and insights, Todd, and thank you for contributing them to this thread. What's more, I'm in 100% agreement with you that opposing viewpoints should definitely be expressed, especially when they have evidence backing up their assertions.

More power to you, Todd, and all you others who hold a number of different viewpoints on this subject. The free and civil exchange of information is what this forum is all about.


Wade Hampton Miller
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  #92  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:45 PM
HFox HFox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hampton View Post
Todd, I'm sorry if I've come across as more strident or vociferous than usual on this thread. Your mention of the rabbet cut for a purfling channel is interesting. If that's something that does affect the sound, then other purfling such as herringbone trim should have a similar affect.

I guess what sparked my (mild but undeniable) indignation over the whole idea of abalone purfling "improving" the sound of a guitar is that it's a fairly blatant, self-serving sort of thing, especially if the guitar manufacturer can convince potential buyers that thirty dollars worth of abalone is worth paying thousands of dollars extra for a guitar.

In the olden days (as in a few years ago,) there WAS more hand labor involved, cutting out all those little pieces and gluing them into place. Now, though, it's literally just a few seconds work gluing pre-sized laminated abalone strips into their channels.

I think John Greven's comments earlier in the thread are valid - maybe I'm just as old school in this regard as he is. If the rabbet cut for the purfling channel does have an impact on the sound, that makes far more sense to me than the abalone doing it. So that possibility that you've raised changes my math on this from being 100% implausible to perhaps 5% plausible, 95% wishful thinking.

That said, even if this theory about the purfling channel changing the tone turns out to be 100% correct, we're still - as Mycroft put it - in "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" territory. Any tonal impact from abalone purfling has got to be exceedingly minor, if it exists at all.

But I think we're in agreement there. As another thoughtful contributor early in the thread wrote, everything in an acoustic guitar contributes to the sound somehow. So I've turned down the dial on my Vociferous-O-Meter®, and will respond more gently on the topic in the future.

Just as I do when I read comments about the supposedly miraculous tonal effects of fancy aftermarket bridge pins. Both subjects set the klaxon howling on my BS-Meter®, but that doesn't mean I have to come howling into the thread and land on it tromping around in hobnail boots.....



NOT My Favorite Communication Style

Short version: I remain unconvinced, but I always appreciate your comments and insights, Todd, and thank you for contributing them to this thread. What's more, I'm in 100% agreement with you that opposing viewpoints should definitely be expressed, especially when they have evidence backing up their assertions.

More power to you, Todd, and all you others who hold a number of different viewpoints on this subject. The free and civil exchange of information is what this forum is all about.


Wade Hampton Miller
Wade,
I was going to edit down your comments for the sake of brevity but quoted the whole thing because you have shown the course we should all take in sharing our thoughts when we have discourse about the instruments we love .
Kudos and respect to you.
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  #93  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:58 PM
Zigeuner Zigeuner is offline
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One thing is certain. Adding abalone bling improves C.F. Martin's bottom line.

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  #94  
Old 03-08-2018, 02:37 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Originally Posted by HFox View Post
Wade,
I was going to edit down your comments for the sake of brevity but quoted the whole thing because you have shown the course we should all take in sharing our thoughts when we have discourse about the instruments we love .
Kudos and respect to you.
Thanks, Zorro - that’s kind of you to say.

As for profit margins, Zigeuner, you’re completely correct: abalone trim is unquestionably a wonderful profit generator for guitar companies. It’s like buying a bottle of good wine at a fancy restaurant, only taking that profit margin to an exponentially greater level.


whm
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  #95  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:04 PM
mcduffnw mcduffnw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
Of course that comment was to make a point, specifically this one...

One opinion does not constitute consensus, even when that opinion is from an experienced builder. Neither does having done something many times automatically make a person more right than someone who has done a thing fewer times. There are other experienced builders who believe the rabbet cuts and inlay around the edges do affect tone. I noted that in a previous post. I come down on the side of “some effect” not “better or worse”. Regardless, I’m willing to listen to other opinions. I don’t automatically call for cutting off debate as soon as someone weighs in with a response that suits me.
Well...fair enough...apparently Bill Collings and Richard Hoover feel otherwise, alas we haven't heard from as many luthiers as might be nice. But if you look logically at the structure of a guitar out at the edges, and noting that the purfling...pearl, wood, whatever is only about .060 thick, so it doesn't even go all the way down to the linings when the channel is routed out, it is seriously hard to imagine how anything that small is going to make any difference in transmitted vibrational response from the stiffest point on the guitar soundbox...the very edges.

duff
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  #96  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:10 PM
guitar george guitar george is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hampton View Post
In the olden days (as in a few years ago,) there WAS more hand labor involved, cutting out all those little pieces and gluing them into place. Now, though, it's literally just a few seconds work gluing pre-sized laminated abalone strips into their channels.
How much time, money and effort is put into making those "pre-sized laminated abalone strips"?
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  #97  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:24 PM
808K 808K is offline
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Originally Posted by hifivic View Post
http://www.grevenguitars.com/bio.html

............go to post #77 in this thread.
Thank you for your response. It was interesting, at least to me, to read the opinion and see it in print.

For the record, I take no side in this, I simply don’t know enough to have an educated opinion. But I do appreciate hearing the thoughts and opinions posted here.
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  #98  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:24 PM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
^^ This. The bling does nothing for tone, but the higher 40 series will get the best selection of available woods.
I would hope so.
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  #99  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:28 PM
bizango1 bizango1 is offline
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Hey Wade, you nailed it! ("100% implausible to perhaps 5% plausible")

We need the Mythbusters back! The Kings of Plausible/Implausible.
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  #100  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:33 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar george View Post
How much time, money and effort is put into making those "pre-sized laminated abalone strips"?
I can’t tell you that, but I can tell you that it’s an industrial process. The end product is not very expensive at all, so presumably it’s a highly efficient and cost-effective procedure.

Did you happen to notice how, in the 1990’s, all sorts of inexpensive Asian-made acoustic guitars suddenly started becoming available with abalone purfling and rosettes? If you didn’t notice, that’s when it occurred.

It was the introduction of Abalam to the market that made that possible.


whm
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  #101  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:34 PM
Montesdad Montesdad is offline
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Default Advanced Shell Technology

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar george View Post
How much time, money and effort is put into making those "pre-sized laminated abalone strips"?

https://www.advancedshelltech.com
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  #102  
Old 03-08-2018, 05:59 PM
Mycroft Mycroft is offline
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Originally Posted by guitar george View Post
How much time, money and effort is put into making those "pre-sized laminated abalone strips"?
I don't believe that they make the pre-sized strips. They make sheets of the stuff and then cut it to size. Pretty industrial.
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  #103  
Old 03-08-2018, 06:05 PM
Rick Shepherd Rick Shepherd is offline
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I don’t care if the bling makes any difference. I like inlay, and I like tone. If a guitar has both, it’s all good!
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  #104  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:07 AM
51 Relic 51 Relic is offline
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Default do D-45 appointments improve sound quality of a guitar ?

I don't really know but I played my Son in Laws Style 42 12 fret Custom Shop Martin last month and it looked and sounded astonishing . Found it really hard to put back in the case
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  #105  
Old 03-09-2018, 11:38 AM
Steadfastly Steadfastly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zigeuner View Post
One thing is certain. Adding abalone bling improves C.F. Martin's bottom line.

Bling, bling, bling. You sir, go to the head of the class.
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