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  #16  
Old 12-04-2017, 04:59 PM
animal eater animal eater is offline
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Well after trying a ton of setups including some that were mentioned I have found something that works great for me and my set up. I play in a band and also do the odd acoustic show and my main guitar is a Larrivee. For me the best combo was a B-band UST pickup paired with a Tonebone PZ pre. Does it sound exactly like the guitar unplugged? No but it sounds good to my ears and usually anyone who is listening.

The set up durable. I have tons of control to EQ as I wish before it gets to the sound man and has all the features I need. On the same guitar the K&K never really did it for me, neither did a variety of Fishmans or and M-80.

I am a happy chappy. That said, I think people need realistic expectations that there lies a difference between playing a guitar in your living room, the recording studio and in a live setting.

My two cents.

Last edited by Kerbie; 12-04-2017 at 05:05 PM. Reason: Removed masked profanity
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  #17  
Old 12-04-2017, 05:04 PM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
.....We are collectively exploring the IR path.
For those of us who may be less-enlightened....."IR" stands for.......?
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  #18  
Old 12-04-2017, 06:39 PM
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* For what I do as a full-time solo performer at this stage in my career I currently enjoy and use Takamine's CoolTube system in two MIJ guitars, and a Baggs M80 in my D18 run direct into one or two in tandem Loudbox Performers...not perfectly natural, but close enough with the ability to handle with great feedback resistance my wide dynamic range of material, volume and variety of venues; it's always a trade-off and you have to find where your style will work in the in-between worlds of unplugged and amplified sound.

** If I had the $$$$, I'm really liking the 000-18e Retro...I've spent mega time with this system thru the LBP and know the images, controls etc and find it really sounds wonderfully natural and quackless. The mic images are different for each model and the 000-18e has 3 images I really like:

1.) image #2 on the EZ mode which is a Neumann U67 Large Diaphragm Condenser mic and sounds articulate and airy for finger style and for clean flat pickin'.

2.) image #3 on the EZ mode which is a AEA 440 Active Ribbon mic and sounds great for heavy, full, warm rhythm playing.

3.) image #9 in Performance mode is a another warm Shure KSM353 Bi-Directional Ribbon mic.

*** the piezo by itself is typical & terrible

**** Edit/tone control, image blend, tuner, phase and eq features are wonderful

***** unplugged warm, clear and lovely, setup was wonderful stage ready, fit n finish very good.

SBT's and Anthem style systems don't work for me, tho they can work wonderfully for others. F1 Aura Plus = gets a bit closer to our desired unplugged nirvana

eric
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  #19  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:50 PM
ManyMartinMan ManyMartinMan is offline
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That’s why everyone should have a good sound person help set up their equipment with them. A sound engineer can dial in your system just like your tech sets up your guitar.
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  #20  
Old 12-05-2017, 12:08 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
For those of us who may be less-enlightened....."IR" stands for.......?
IR= Impulse response filter. This type of filter is now used for amp speaker & cabinet simulation (Line 6 Helix, Kemper, Atomic FireAmp...) or reverb (Logic Pro X Space designer)

An impulse response filter basically adds multiple delayed versions of your signal with different weight/strenght/amplitude and phase. For long delays it behave like the echos of your sound coming from the different reflexions on the walls (reverb). For shorter (few 10 ms), you can see it as the different path of the vibration from the strings, to the bridge, to the different areas of the top and then of course to the microphone. Those muliple paths create the different resonant vibrations of your top and therefore the identity of your guitar. So a custom IR filter, like one made by Tonedexter reproduce that (and also the rosette woofy air resonance).

For the record, I think Tonedexter is 2048 "paths" (8096 "paths" in slot 22) and Fishman Aura is around 2000 (says Larry Fishman in an interview).

Here is a fast demo with a Martin D-35SA

1) is mic
2) is pickup (fishman goldplus)
3) is homemade IR v1 applied to the pickup
4) is homemade IR v2 applied to the pickup


Note that I only used 1minute of recording of the guitar (only strumming) to create these IRs. I could probably do better with longer recordings. Also note that I did not EQ yet. So you have a typical bass boost that have been also discussed in previous threads. Fishman IRs usually have a big low cut filter added. And to my ear since I don't own one, Tonedexter as a strong high cut filter.

The same technology was patented by Fishman, Yamaha and Audiosprokets (Tonedexter) with different "flavour". Nonetheless, the main idea was published in scientific papers before. It's probably the reason why you have IR modeling pedals everywhere now (Mama bear, Zoom...).

Cuki
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Last edited by Cuki79; 12-05-2017 at 12:38 AM.
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  #21  
Old 12-05-2017, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
For those of us who may be less-enlightened....."IR" stands for.......?
Impulse Response - related to the various convolution/modeling devices, from Aura to ToneDexter. I've been skeptical of this approach, until Tone Dexter, which works fabulously to take the "stink" out pickups. Maybe that could be their marketing slogan :-).
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  #22  
Old 12-05-2017, 12:46 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Impulse Response - related to the various convolution/modeling devices, from Aura to ToneDexter. I've been skeptical of this approach, until Tone Dexter, which works fabulously to take the "stink" out pickups. Maybe that could be their marketing slogan :-).
By the way Doug, don't you think IR convolution tends to compress the sound by smoothing the transient/ cutting the high end?

Somehow, I feel the blend button on the Fishman Aura is also intended to bring back some feel and directness to the sound.

PS: Sorry Dave for the stinky thread hacking.

Cuki
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  #23  
Old 12-05-2017, 05:43 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
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I put my first pickup on a guitar in 1970. It was a Barcus-Berry unit with a primative preamp. It worked.

The first time I tried a guitar with a saddle piezo (an Ovation), I knew I would NEVER use that sort of system, and I understood what was going on, immediately: The sound was coming through the speaker before it was coming out of the sound hole.

It screwed up my phrasing, my timing, etc.

Fazool expressed it very well in an amusing way, but I feel just as strongly almost 50 years later.

There's nothing better than a perfect room with an audience that is there to listen, and great PA system with great mics & a sound man who knows what's what.

In the real world my system has stood me in good stead: A single Fishman SBT-E soundboard transducer under the top near the bass end of the bridge.

If I'm traveling light I bring a Fishman Pro-EQ and go into the PA. If I'm supplying the sound I plug directly into a Fishman Loudbox Performer Amp.

It gives a very, very good representation of my sound as a player, and it does this with minimal fuss.

Here's what I'm talking about:



HE
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  #24  
Old 12-05-2017, 05:43 AM
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martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Thanks for taking the time to answer Paul’s question. Nothing stinky about that. I’m enjoying the discussion.

I’ve noticed that a number of folks are presenting their factory solutions as better mouse traps. And, I totally agree. For instance, the Fishman F1, Maton, Yamaha ART, etc. are all excellent systems. In fact, if Martin made a Adirondack topped guitar with the Fishman system I’d be mighty tempted. However, the argument that Rich Addison has been making has finally sunk in for me. These systems, and the guitars that contain them, are really perfect for full time performing/working musicians, because they come with two major caveats: the model choices are somewhat limited, so you’ll need to really love the offering, and when the systems break, you’ll have a much greater challenge replacing or repairing them. I don’t mind the holes as much as other people seem to.

Non-working musicians who play on Sunday, weekends, open mics, etc., also want great sound quality, but they might not dedicate a “stage” guitar to the activity. In these cases, it might be better to select an after market option that is replaceable, or removable, and relatively undetectable. But, as stated above, all those options stink too. :-)

This is why I’ve come to the conclusion that a good “universal” solution is one that uses the simplest pickup with sophisticated modeling In the form of a pedal. The guitar’s tone is preserved and you get the sound quality. However, you lose the controls at your fingertips. One way to combat that is to include a passive volume pot on the guitar with your passive or active pickup like the one offered by K&K. This is what I’ll be installing on my newest guitar. At least you can adjust volume, or mute, right on he guitar. I think that’s very handy. Pun intended.

My hope is that inventors continue to miniaturize the aftermarket IR systems.
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Last edited by martingitdave; 12-05-2017 at 05:50 AM.
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  #25  
Old 12-05-2017, 06:44 AM
Nymuso Nymuso is offline
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NO means of amplification or recording of anything will yield exactly what the unaided human ear hears. Electronics aside, it also depends on where in the room that human ear is in relation to the sound source. No wonder it is so easy to get crazy with this stuff.

As with everything guitar, it is dependent upon what you are trying to accomplish. If you are playing a concert for a quiet, attentive audience, the amplification you need is not only different from the amplification system you need for playing with a loud bar band, it is exactly the system you do not want.

So the first order of business is to identify the situation in which a given guitar is most likely to be utilized, and to optimize the pickup system for that application. Consequently, having several different instruments with different systems is not unheard of for those who play various venues.
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  #26  
Old 12-05-2017, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Emerson View Post
I put my first pickup on a guitar in 1970. It was a Barcus-Berry unit with a primative preamp. It worked.



The first time I tried a guitar with a saddle piezo (an Ovation), I knew I would NEVER use that sort of system, and I understood what was going on, immediately: The sound was coming through the speaker before it was coming out of the sound hole.



It screwed up my phrasing, my timing, etc.



Fazool expressed it very well in an amusing way, but I feel just as strongly almost 50 years later.



There's nothing better than a perfect room with an audience that is there to listen, and great PA system with great mics & a sound man who knows what's what.



In the real world my system has stood me in good stead: A single Fishman SBT-E soundboard transducer under the top near the bass end of the bridge.



If I'm traveling light I bring a Fishman Pro-EQ and go into the PA. If I'm supplying the sound I plug directly into a Fishman Loudbox Performer Amp.



It gives a very, very good representation of my sound as a player, and it does this with minimal fuss.



Here's what I'm talking about:







HE

Very nice Howard. I enjoyed the arrangement. Thanks for adding to the discussion. One of the things that I hear from players that play in loud, or larger, environments is that the under saddle transducer provides “immediacy” to the sound.

Perhaps, when you add the 5 or 10ms delay from the IR, you end up with something that approximates the sound hole in terms of timing.
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  #27  
Old 12-05-2017, 06:51 AM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
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I bought the iRig Acoustic Stage contraption few months back, and hey, it is a great idea....

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/irigacousticstage/


It works well and I can 'electrify' any acoustic I have that as no pickup, or I don't want it to have a pickup.

The down sides are it is 'good for the money' but not in the Fishman league for sound quality and the kicker....road use major or minor.

I mention this gadget because the idea is great and I hope Neumann or Fishman or even someone like Boss, are beavering away on their high quality, probably expensive, road ready version! The iRig has the idea - easy to mount, and remove, on most acoustics, sep preamp with outboard controls........

But I imagine my Neumann or whatever maker's model to have heavy duty leads, power supply, eq, etc in a sturdy Boss type floor pedal...... and hope it is Bluetooth/wireless!

BluesKing777.

Last edited by BluesKing777; 12-05-2017 at 07:01 AM.
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  #28  
Old 12-05-2017, 07:14 AM
j3ffr0 j3ffr0 is offline
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I agree with the OP. My motto:

"Mic it and like it"
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  #29  
Old 12-05-2017, 07:39 AM
pieterh pieterh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly View Post
I use a K & K and Fishman Aura modeler. It's plug and play. Aren't the words acoustic and pick-up synonyms in some fashion? That's like fresh air and air freshener.


How does it sound? I wonder because Fishman insist it works best with an under saddle pickup like their Matrix (well they would, wouldn’t they!). Assuming you are using a Pure Mini (my pickup of choice) I would be interested to know how well Aura imaging works with it. Tone Dexter seems to be a fantastic evolution of the idea but is a bit expensive and hard to find in Europe for the time being.
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  #30  
Old 12-05-2017, 07:54 AM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Thanks for taking the time to answer Paul’s question.
Ditto. Thank you -- everyone -- for the information and explanation.
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