The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 11-21-2017, 07:15 AM
Dakedi Dakedi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeStone View Post
Look forward to hearing more ...

Just curious... If you didn't go for the H6. Wouldn't the H5 be better choice then the H4Npro? (if money is not a factor). Or am I missing something on the H4np that it has over the H5. To me the H5 would be the winner (over the H4np) on price/performance. Sleeker design, easier controls, menu navigation, modular mic connection.

You're right. That's why I put H5 in brackets. If the overdubbing 'issue' (not being able to start overdubbing midway through a track) exists with the H6 but not with the H5 then I'd go with the H5 (over the H4) ... especially because of the real dials and the proper line level ins.

I really want to get an H6 if it does what I want. Next preference would be the H5 and only lastly the H4. Unfortunately, it's starting to look like the H4 is going to be it ... if the preamps are at least as good as the H6.

If they are not then it's a choice between good overdub abilities or good preamp quality ... and then preamp quality is the most important for me.
__________________
Jan
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-21-2017, 07:54 AM
JakeStone JakeStone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 2,397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakedi View Post
You're right. That's why I put H5 in brackets. If the overdubbing 'issue' (not being able to start overdubbing midway through a track) exists with the H6 but not with the H5 then I'd go with the H5 (over the H4) ... especially because of the real dials and the proper line level ins.

I really want to get an H6 if it does what I want. Next preference would be the H5 and only lastly the H4. Unfortunately, it's starting to look like the H4 is going to be it ... if the preamps are at least as good as the H6.

If they are not then it's a choice between good overdub abilities or good preamp quality ... and then preamp quality is the most important for me.
Ok Gotcha..

I like the H6 too... But I prob wont need the extra inputs. Although, it's really not a lot more money than the H5. The color screen, extra mic and nice carry case are worth the $70 alone.

Last edited by JakeStone; 11-21-2017 at 08:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:55 AM
Dakedi Dakedi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeStone View Post
Ok Gotcha.. So the overdubbing you are referring. Does it work the way you need on the H4np? Re: ability to simply fast forward to spot you want to overdub and "punch in and out".

I like the H6 too... But I prob wont need the extra inputs. Although, it's really not a lot more money than the H5. The color screen, extra mic and nice carry case are worth the $70 alone.
On the H4N Pro you can do most of the standard overdubbing things like starting from anywhere along a track or punching in/out using and automated or manual.

It's implemented in an easy way as well. You just place markers in the project and you can use the forward/backward buttons to skip to them ... then just record/overdub as usual.

I think the H6 has a lot more for the money than the H5 ... but the H5 only has very little over the H4N Pro! All I can see so far is removable and possibly better mics, +4db line level ins and physical gain knobs ... but then also a much reduced overdubbing ability.

I can't stop looking at the H5 and thinking - it's missing the extra preamps of the H6 and missing the overdubbing of the H4. At least with the other two I get one of the features

It's a frustrating mix of talents
__________________
Jan
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-21-2017, 11:54 AM
JakeStone JakeStone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 2,397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakedi View Post
On the H4N Pro you can do most of the standard overdubbing things like starting from anywhere along a track or punching in/out using and automated or manual.

It's implemented in an easy way as well. You just place markers in the project and you can use the forward/backward buttons to skip to them ... then just record/overdub as usual.

I think the H6 has a lot more for the money than the H5 ... but the H5 only has very little over the H4N Pro! All I can see so far is removable and possibly better mics, +4db line level ins and physical gain knobs ... but then also a much reduced overdubbing ability.

I can't stop looking at the H5 and thinking - it's missing the extra preamps of the H6 and missing the overdubbing of the H4. At least with the other two I get one of the features

It's a frustrating mix of talents
I'm sure everyone goes through this decision process... I am going back and forth too. But mainly between the H5 and H6.

The punch in "dubbing" feature isn't a stumbling point for me. I'd be doing this in my DAW. Plus I rarely make mistake .. Jus' kiddin'
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-21-2017, 01:53 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 5,905
Default

I don't believe you can do that with the H6. At least I can't find a way. To me, these things are great because they're "simple". One button recording with no fancy workflow to get in the way and make you mess up. Once you start trying to do anything more sophisticated, the benefit of these devices - the "one button" simplicity - becomes a impediment, not a benefit.

Have you considered recording apps on the iPad, etc? From Garage band to Auria, you still get fairly simple, portable, quiet, etc, but you can do all the things with an interface designed to support them. (You could even use a Zoom as the interface to the tablet, I believe)
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-21-2017, 02:03 PM
Dakedi Dakedi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeStone View Post
... I'd be doing this in my DAW ...
Getting away from my DAW to do the recording is exactly the point for me to get one of these. If I needed to go back to the DAW to do parts of the recording process then I might as well do it all there.

It's almost like Zoom have done this on purpose so that you buy two devices ... one for the parallel recording of multiple tracks and the other to do overdubs

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeStone View Post
... I rarely make mistake .. Jus' kiddin'
I don't normally do overdubs to correct mistakes so punching in and out is not really what I need ... but being able to start partway through a track is pretty basic recording workflow. It's the waiting for several minutes to start doing a recording that I has me thinking.

If you don't need this then if I were you I'd go for the H6. The extra inputs will be valuable one day. You get that carry case to put everything in, much longer battery life because you have 4 in there. Extra mic ... and you can even get 2 extra XLR inputs. The list just goes on ...
__________________
Jan
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-21-2017, 02:35 PM
Dakedi Dakedi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Have you considered recording apps on the iPad, etc? From Garage band to Auria, you still get fairly simple, portable, quiet, etc, but you can do all the things with an interface designed to support them. (You could even use a Zoom as the interface to the tablet, I believe)
I tried a while back to use an iPad and got a lot of stuff for it like the Apogee Jam and I used my CEntrance MicPort Pro for mics but for some reason I never got it the way I wanted it. It may be because at the time I had the iPad 2 so the apps were not to mature yet. Now I have the iPad Pro maybe things are better.

But in my memory I just couldn't get away from having loads of wires because any interface that had two or more XLR mic inputs required me to plug into a powered USB hub which needed a power supply for it. I ended up going back to my laptop because everything could be bus powered. A fast laptop with a good USB bus-powered interface has always had my iPad beat for a fast, mobile, non-messy recording solution.

Maybe a battery powered interface which didn't require plugging into a hub first could work for my iPad... even better would be not plugged in at all and wirelessly (is that a word?!) controlled (like Airplay) ... if there is such a thing

I checked a few videos for plugging in the H6 to an iPad and I keep seeing it plugged into a powered hub and then the hub plugged into the iPad and also into a wall socket. I think the H6 also uses the USB port to power it and so it sends the wrong signals to the iPad (i.e. that it requires a lot of power). Shame really.
__________________
Jan
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-21-2017, 07:19 PM
bmish bmish is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 153
Default

I went through this a couple of months ago. I can't remember all the details, but I ended up with the H4nPro. I haven't really used it much but it came down to the overdubbing, multitracking, etc, and it just seemed for some reason both the H5 and H6, absurdly I thought, couldn't do some of the things I needed it too. From everything I had read they are the same preamps.....but alas, no real world experience.
__________________
Larrivee D03R
'61 Gibson J45
Pono L-20
Pono C-OM-30
Blueridge Br-163
'73 Guild D-25
Recording King Dirty Thirties Parlor
Facebook: Koanical Inhale Project
http://www.youtube.com/user/zencabbage/videos
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:36 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 2,141
Default Aloha Jan

Aloha Jan,

I still think that if you want to move beyond simple, one-touch recording of any kind, that small recorders like the Zoom's are a step backward for what you've stated you're trying to accomplish.

There are much, much better professional grade, portable recorders out there that allow you to accomplish pro-level tasks & editing without the limitations of the small recorders & "more cables" of a laptop, DAW, interface set-up.

Sound Devices is the king, IMO, of the best quality, more inclusive live remote recorders. I'm sure someone might excoriate me for suggesting such pricey solutions here, but they are solutions that really work & produce pro level results while being easy to use. I've owned several of these recorders over the years to capture musical moments with pro level features & sound quality in the field. Here's one of their new models - with 10 inputs - check out others at Sweetwater Audio:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MixPre-10T

"but all in a small package"

There's the rub, Jan. Though designers are getting closer, when it comes to audio electronic engineering, smaller is never better. Again, as much as we want it to be, SMALLER IS NEVER BETTER.

Small speakers can never sound as complete as large speakers. Relatively cheap, small Zoom recorders will always have the problems associated w/ their small designs - cross-talk, noise, poor interfaces & EQ, noisy onboard mic's, tiny menu's that are difficult to read on the fly & features that don't work well together at the same time. Cellphone recording will always have limitations, even in the digital age. It's an engineering dilemma, Jan. Size does matter in this case.

Doug was right in writing that if you try to do anything more than one-button recording, then the small recorders become something less than positive & more of a PIA. You can't ask them to do what they can't do very well, And they do an amazing amount of cool things for their size & at such a low price. But not all very well.

The Zoom's are great for beginners, for learning the basics of recording, & capturing moments on the fly. But when you talk about over-dubbing, multi-tasking, waiting in dubbing, editing & other tasks,(?) then you are barking up the wrong tree, IMO, with the small recorders. They are all about convenience for one-button tracking only, not pro level audio quality & certainly not for using menu's & editing. To me, their bells & whistles are not worth pursuing. PIA.

"I've started a journey away from this to smaller, simpler, quicker to setup and neater solutions and I am trying to look ahead to see where this might go and what options are out there."

The options are changing. However the limitations of small recorders are all too real. You should look elsewhere, Jan, or make a laptop work for you. It does for most in live situations. They still beat the newer smaller options at this point, my friend.

Good luck on your journey, Jan. We're all on the same path to find easier & more efficient ways to record the sounds we love, without compromises in sound. I've learned a lot through your thread here.

All the best,
alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 11-21-2017 at 09:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:35 PM
KevWind KevWind is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Out West
Posts: 9,386
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha Jan,



Sound Devices is the king, IMO, of the best quality, more inclusive live remote recorders. I'm sure someone might excoriate me for suggesting such pricey solutions here, but they are solutions that really work & produce pro level results while being easy to use. I've owned several of these recorders over the years to capture musical moments with pro level features & sound quality in the field. Here's one of their new models - with 10 inputs - check out others at Sweetwater Audio:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MixPre-10T



All the best,
alohachris
Well I certainly learned something .... I was already aware of Sound Devices but I did have look up "excoriate"
__________________
" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." Albert Einstein
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...



http://soundcloud.com/kevwind
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-23-2017, 12:54 AM
Dakedi Dakedi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 647
Default

Hi Chris,

Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha Jan,

I still think that if you want to move beyond simple, one-touch recording of any kind, that small recorders like the Zoom's are a step backward for what you've stated you're trying to accomplish.

There are much, much better professional grade, portable recorders out there that allow you to accomplish pro-level tasks & editing without the limitations of the small recorders & "more cables" of a laptop, DAW, interface set-up.

Sound Devices is the king, IMO, of the best quality, more inclusive live remote recorders.
When I discovered the Zooms (and their limitations) I looked at the Sound Devices equipment but although I have no issue with the price difference between an H4nPro, H5 or H6 it was a too far ahead of my budget. I have to remember that in the end this is just my hobby .. not my wife's or kid's ... so just one of many in the household. I don't want to end up sleeping in the garden

I'm not looking for pro level recordings (although that would be nice) and I have to remember that I already have an array of DAW solutions. So this is a solution to run in parallel to these for when I can't or don't want to take a laptop/DAW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
"but all in a small package"

There's the rub, Jan. Though designers are getting closer, when it comes to audio electronic engineering, smaller is never better. Again, as much as we want it to be, SMALLER IS NEVER BETTER.

Small speakers can never sound as complete as large speakers. Relatively cheap, small Zoom recorders will always have the problems associated w/ their small designs - cross-talk, noise, poor interfaces & EQ, noisy onboard mic's, tiny menu's that are difficult to read on the fly & features that don't work well together at the same time. Cellphone recording will always have limitations, even in the digital age. It's an engineering dilemma, Jan. Size does matter in this case.
You're right that at any given time smaller is rarely better - camera's is another good example of this. But compared to the past ... and it doesn't have to be very far in the past ... small technology is getting better. And so small equipment is getting very close to what bigger equipment was like only a few years ago.

When I look at much of my 'smaller' electronic equipment, non of it was around 20 years ago, I would have been very happy with the performance back then ... even in the bigger equipment of the time.

I looked into all this about 15 years ago and back then the technology was not ready. The difference was too big for me. However, listening to results that Fran and others have had I decided it was time to retry and give it another chance ... and I have to say 2017 is a very different landscape from 2000.

When computers were still relatively new there was a large move by many to try to do everything on a computer, like listening to music collection, listening to radio, making music, watching TV, reading books .... (some even use a computer to run effects in their amps loop ) ... the computer became the magical multipurpose tool of choice.

Personally, I prefer devices that are built to do one thing ... but do it well. Maybe I'm just old fashioned ... I have a radio, LPs and CDs, a TV set, proper valve amps that only do one sound and loads of single purpose effects pedals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Doug was right in writing that if you try to do anything more than one-button recording, then the small recorders become something less than positive & more of a PIA. You can't ask them to do what they can't do very well, And they do an amazing amount of cool things for their size & at such a low price. But not all very well.
I agree there ... doing anything like setting levels through a menu is fiddly and annoying but starting recording from midway through a track is implemented in a very simple way ... just tab forward with the forward buttons before you press record.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Good luck on your journey, Jan. We're all on the same path to find easier & more efficient ways to record the sounds we love, without compromises in sound. I've learned a lot through your thread here.

All the best,
alohachris
Thanks. I've also learnt a lot.
__________________
Jan
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-23-2017, 01:15 AM
Dakedi Dakedi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakedi View Post
Maybe a battery powered interface which didn't require plugging into a hub first could work for my iPad... even better would be not plugged in at all and wirelessly (is that a word?!) controlled (like Airplay) ... if there is such a thing
On further investigation I've found that the H5 and H6 was designed to specifically work with an iPad. Not just 'it can be used with an iPad' like so many other devices that turn out to completely fail. There is a menu setting under 'USB/Audio Interfaces' that lets you choose 'PC/Mac bus Powered', 'PC/Mac battery powered' and 'iPad'.

And I've now found a few examples of people demonstrating the H5/H6 connect to an iPad without a powered hub. However, the 'iPad' menu choice is only available in 'Stereo' mode. Under 'Multitracking' it is mysteriously missing. All the demos appear to be in 'Stereo' mode

Apparently, the H5/H6 interface implementation (especially for iPads) is much better than with the H4. So this is starting to make the H5/H6 more interesting (although my main interest is still to use it as a standalone device) ... if only you could start recording partway through a track and not have to always start at the beginning.

It almost feels like every model has something simple missing and probably the next generation will have this covered ... an H5n or H6n on the way? ...

I'm a year too early
__________________
Jan
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-23-2017, 01:25 AM
Andy Howell Andy Howell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 907
Default

The H6 is simply a very fine digital recorder. The quality of the preamps is good and the built in mics very usable. Use with good mics it’s performance is superb for the price.

It - and the H4 - are simply excellent and doing what most of us want to do.
__________________
------
AJ Lucas Pavilion Sweep fan fret
Santa Cruz OM/E (European Pre War)
Martin J40
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-23-2017, 02:56 AM
Steev Steev is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In the rainforest, QLD Oz.
Posts: 408
Default Overdubbing on the H5

One drop-in work around on the H5 could be to divide your first track just before the point where you want to drop in and then overdub on the 'new' pruned track. Once you have the drop nailed line it all up back home in your DAW.
(I tried all different ways of getting the H5 to overdub halfway through a song and I couldn't get it to...)
__________________
www.stevereinthal.com
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-23-2017, 03:01 AM
Dakedi Dakedi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steev View Post
One drop-in work around on the H5 could be to divide your first track just before the point where you want to drop in and then overdub on the 'new' pruned track. Once you have the drop nailed line it all up back home in your DAW.
(I tried all different ways of getting the H5 to overdub halfway through a song and I couldn't get it to...)
Thanks. Can you split a track on the H5? That would be an interesting workaround.
__________________
Jan
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=