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  #31  
Old 11-28-2017, 10:10 AM
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Smile Manifesting John Kinnaird...

I am humming that E...

He seems a bit busy now. I can chime in on the laminated LININGS. Someone set me straight about "kerfing" on one of the build threads JK did for me. Seems a bit pedantic but accuracy is our goal when communicating!

The solid linings add MUCH more rigidity to the sides. That allows a more lively top. Think vintage drums. Thin sides with solid rims. It seems to work! Something in John's pixie dust sure does!!!

On my last build he did double sides which are so rigid already he used reverse kerfed linings. Perhaps due to the weight reduction of the BIG bevels.

John, when you do show up here feel free to correct me if I am wrong!

Cheers

Paul
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  #32  
Old 11-28-2017, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Higham View Post
Second time I've heard someone talk about 'solid kerfing'. Kerfing is the procedure of cutting slots in the linings to make them flexible. The slots are the kerfs so solid kerfing is nonsense. (Good job Howard's not around at the moment. )
This is a laminated (solid) lining and I would guess that the laminations are glued together, but not glued to the side so John can take it off and cut it in half to make two before gluing them in.
Thanks for the correction, I will try not to make the same mistake again, although no promises. I am glad you knew what I meant at least and you are probably right about cutting them in half which would also explain why they were only glued ( or not glued as you say) to the one side.
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  #33  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:15 PM
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Those linings are glued on. No splitting. It will form the foundation for additional arm bevel support (which will be kerfed) in the lower bout and strengthen the upper bout where the sound port penetrates the sides. The other side of the guitar will have lining which is less deep. Assymetry is rampant. Arm beveles and, cutaway, and that assymetry is reflected inside
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  #34  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:44 PM
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Default Why I use laminated linings

Almost every luthier has found a system that works for them. Bruce uses tantalones and Bogdanovich states in his book that he got a better sound when he abandoned tantalones and went with solid linings. The first book I ever read on the subject of guitar making was called Guitar Making and it was written by Art Overholtzer. He uses tantalones and won a prestigious guitar making award. Are there any commonalities in all these makers or are linings a non issue and differences an effect of other factors.

My personal experience is that the sound of my guitars has improved since I began using solid linings but I do not think it is due to the lining per se but rather due to the fact that i do not require the back or the top to exert any control on the shape of the sides. In fact when I glue on the back and top the guitar is no longer in the mold. I share that building technique with Bruce and Art overholtzer who flat stated that the worse sounding guitars he made were made using an outside mold.
So, not to get too pedantic, I use the laminated linings to maintain the shape of the guitar so that I can work with it "in the air" (to quote a luthier we all admire) when fastening top and back. There are other techniques. Laminated sides, and even reversed kerfing to a degree all will add rigidity and solidify the shape of the sides. Whatever the method you know you're good if the sides don't spring out of shape when they are removed from the mold.
Thats my take. Opinions may vary.
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Last edited by j. Kinnaird; 11-28-2017 at 08:11 PM.
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  #35  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:59 AM
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I did wonder if the depth was to accomodate an arm bevel but it was the fact that the depth continued into the upper bout that fooled me.
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  #36  
Old 11-29-2017, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j. Kinnaird View Post
Almost every luthier has found a system that works for them. Bruce uses tantalones and Bogdanovich states in his book that he got a better sound when he abandoned tantalones and went with solid linings. The first book I ever read on the subject of guitar making was called Guitar Making and it was written by Art Overholtzer. He uses tantalones and won a prestigious guitar making award. Are there any commonalities in all these makers or are linings a non issue and differences an effect of other factors.

My personal experience is that the sound of my guitars has improved since I began using solid linings but I do not think it is due to the lining per se but rather due to the fact that i do not require the back or the top to exert any control on the shape of the sides. In fact when I glue on the back and top the guitar is no longer in the mold. I share that building technique with Bruce and Art overholtzer who flat stated that the worse sounding guitars he made were made using an outside mold.
So, not to get too pedantic, I use the laminated linings to maintain the shape of the guitar so that I can work with it "in the air" (to quote a luthier we all admire) when fastening top and back. There are other techniques. Laminated sides, and even reversed kerfing to a degree all will add rigidity and solidify the shape of the sides. Whatever the method you know you're good if the sides don't spring out of shape when they are removed from the mold.
Thats my take. Opinions may vary.
Great Explanations...I am learning so much thank you. O.K..just to make perfectly clear...when you say you are using solid linings...Those solid lining are actually laminated strips glued together and formed-bent-shaped to the exact shape of the sides?
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  #37  
Old 11-29-2017, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
Great Explanations...I am learning so much thank you. O.K..just to make perfectly clear...when you say you are using solid linings...Those solid lining are actually laminated strips glued together and formed-bent-shaped to the exact shape of the sides?
Yes, that is how it's done. I typically use either Spanish cedar or eastern red cedar
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  #38  
Old 11-29-2017, 08:30 PM
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Yes, that is how it's done. I typically use either Spanish cedar or eastern red cedar
Can I assume you are using Cedar because it is one of the lightest woods available? Or do you feel the Cedar itself has a Sonic purpose as well?
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  #39  
Old 11-30-2017, 05:27 AM
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Can I assume you are using Cedar because it is one of the lightest woods available? Or do you feel the Cedar itself has a Sonic purpose as well?
Yes. Both reasons.
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  #40  
Old 11-30-2017, 05:27 PM
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OK, so I was going to share these details later, but I am really excited about what John is doing and want to post the latest. For some time, John has been thoughtfully deliberating on what kinds of accents would work well with the unique Pau Santo and some other things (can’t tell yet) we’re doing on the top. I am super happy with what John has come up with, for the backstrip. Here are a couple photos, slightly askew because the back is not yet really assembled. He used purple heart, cocobolo, another rosewood (which auto-correct mangled), and spalted maple. I like the cameo because it suggests a mountain profile. John and I live on mountains that kind of resemble each other, and I love mountains the way I love trees and guitars.
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  #41  
Old 11-30-2017, 06:07 PM
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That really looks nice!

Love the greens in the Pau Santo and the contrast with the backstrip elements is really cool.

Great stuff, John!
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  #42  
Old 11-30-2017, 06:56 PM
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So I am assuming, the "cameo" is not an inlay built to look like mountains, but a piece of wood John found that looks like that naturally! Wow.
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  #43  
Old 11-30-2017, 07:25 PM
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Wow, art, I love it!
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  #44  
Old 11-30-2017, 07:26 PM
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Smile Cedar Linings

Not only is cedar very light, but it smells yummy, and keeps moths from setting up shop in your guitar!

Hey John. Is that cameo some of your spalted yard Maple?

This is looking real sweet!

Cheers

Paul
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J Kinnaird RP12c Cedar/Hog bevels port K&K
JK RP12c BCEuro/HRW. bevels, port, K&K
RT2 12c Sinker/Claro/Koa bevel ES1.3
JK 00012c Adi/HRW Port K&K
97 Taylor 514c Cedar/Hog
96 412ce Sitka/Hog ES1.2
94 555
Coming: myJK #4!

FS: 94 555 https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...74#post5749474
Martin CS 00-12m/adi $2,500

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4Q3XjPcdm0
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  #45  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TomB'sox View Post
So I am assuming, the "cameo" is not an inlay built to look like mountains, but a piece of wood John found that looks like that naturally! Wow.
It's two pieces of wood, spalted maple that looked like mountains and sky and burle d Honduran rosewood that provides the swirled foreground
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