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  #16  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:06 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by Mkel12 View Post
I used a Shure SM81. Not high end, but highly recommended by James May, TD founding father. I have some higher end large condenser mics that I will play with down the road, but the SM81 worked pretty well. $350 at Sweetwater.
I also used a Shure SM81 Small Condenser Mic. It seems to be a good and generally-accepted, all-around instrument mic and James used one in training the ToneDexter.
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  #17  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:33 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I tried an SM57 when I first got mine, worked fine. I've been using "better" mics, but I'd say try with whatever you have handy and see if you like the results. It's not like you're locked in, you can always create additional wavemaps.
Excellent, I have a 57 and a couple other condenser mics that I will try before going high end. I believe my local music store rents out condenser mics for less than $20 for a weekend so I at least won't have to break the bank if I go that route.
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  #18  
Old 11-12-2017, 01:02 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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I'll chime in and add to the happy chorus.

I'm extremely picky and demanding of my tone. I prefer a multiple mike setup for recording but have found mikes are too impractical for live performance. I used to use a dual (UST and internal mic) source system, which was quite good, but still difficult to properly set up and balance.

When I went to the K+K pure mini I felt like I had 85% of the quality of my dual source for 10% of the hassle. A worthwhile tradeoff indeed, yet one always hopes for more...

Now with ToneDexter, I completely surpass the dual source quality level while enjoying the plug and play aspect of setup.

My best results so far have been with small diaphragm condensors (Line Audio CM3 particularly) while the large ones have been good but not great. The one exception so far is the ISK Starlight - sounds so good that I now need to try it for serious recording as well.

Does it sound exactly like a microphone? Super close, but for my ears, not there yet. However, it is closer than anything else I know of, and I doubt anyone who is not trained to hear the differences would notice.

If I was producing a live recording of my own music, I would use this for sure. If I was going into a studio, I would still opt for a miked setup. I expect this technology to progress, so my answer today may change over time.
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  #19  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:02 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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This might have been addressed already but I still have a B-Band A2.2 (SBT and UST) system that I might put into one of my guitars. My Tonedexter is on its way and I am wondering if anyone knows how the Tonedexter will work with dual source system? Let's say I find a good blend on the pickup and use the Tonedexter.. I assume the results would be fine. However, if I play with the blend later, will that impact the tone or will the wavemap not change much?
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  #20  
Old 11-12-2017, 03:16 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
This might have been addressed already but I still have a B-Band A2.2 (SBT and UST) system that I might put into one of my guitars. My Tonedexter is on its way and I am wondering if anyone knows how the Tonedexter will work with dual source system? Let's say I find a good blend on the pickup and use the Tonedexter.. I assume the results would be fine. However, if I play with the blend later, will that impact the tone or will the wavemap not change much?
Try it! I don't know but a similar situation could be considered for my Martin HD-28/Trance M-VT installation. I made my last ToneDexer WaveMap with the Trance M-VT Tone control wide-open, i.e., full-range/full-treble tone-wheel position. I haven't tried playing with the Trance M-VT's Tonewheel by rolling it into the same position I would have it if I didn't have the ToneDexter engaged in the signal-chain. The only thing I can say is that it won't hurt anything to play around with your rig once you get your ToneDexter.
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  #21  
Old 11-12-2017, 03:41 PM
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James May James May is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
This might have been addressed already but I still have a B-Band A2.2 (SBT and UST) system that I might put into one of my guitars. My Tonedexter is on its way and I am wondering if anyone knows how the Tonedexter will work with dual source system? Let's say I find a good blend on the pickup and use the Tonedexter.. I assume the results would be fine. However, if I play with the blend later, will that impact the tone or will the wavemap not change much?
We tested a B-Band dual system 2 years ago. Training from either full UST or full SBT worked great. Training from the 50/50 blend position was not as satisfying. YMMV, especially since our algorithm has improved significantly since then.

In general, if you train from one blend spec (position), you'll get the mic's tonal balance by playing back from that same blend spec. However, there absolutely no harm in varying the blend on playback. You'll still get all the resonance richness that the WaveMap has, but it will alter the tonal balance. Might be good, might not. Worth trying for sure.
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  #22  
Old 11-13-2017, 06:04 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James May View Post
We tested a B-Band dual system 2 years ago. Training from either full UST or full SBT worked great. Training from the 50/50 blend position was not as satisfying. YMMV, especially since our algorithm has improved significantly since then.

In general, if you train from one blend spec (position), you'll get the mic's tonal balance by playing back from that same blend spec. However, there absolutely no harm in varying the blend on playback. You'll still get all the resonance richness that the WaveMap has, but it will alter the tonal balance. Might be good, might not. Worth trying for sure.
Thanks James. I think it would probably make most sense for me to either get a SBT or UST to keep things simple, was just wondering!
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  #23  
Old 11-13-2017, 06:13 PM
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Try it! I don't know but a similar situation could be considered for my Martin HD-28/Trance M-VT installation. I made my last ToneDexer WaveMap with the Trance M-VT Tone control wide-open, i.e., full-range/full-treble tone-wheel position. I haven't tried playing with the Trance M-VT's Tonewheel by rolling it into the same position I would have it if I didn't have the ToneDexter engaged in the signal-chain. The only thing I can say is that it won't hurt anything to play around with your rig once you get your ToneDexter.
When I originally trained a trance system, I had the MVT tone wheel set in the middle - that's how it is in the video demo I posted a few weeks ago. I had no issue varying that later to get a brighter or darker sound thru TD. But I really hate having that MVT module installed, just more stuff inside the guitar, and it occurred to me that with Tone Dexter I didn't need it! Without TD, it really helps the sound, but TD should be able to deal with that, right? I installed a new Trance-M last weekend, and skipped the MVT control completely, and it sure enough it sounds great with ToneDexter. Since ToneDexter handles making the pickup sound right, and I have the tone controls on TD for fine tweaking, I can just skip that MVT control!
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  #24  
Old 11-13-2017, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
When I originally trained a trance system, I had the MVT tone wheel set in the middle - that's how it is in the video demo I posted a few weeks ago. I had no issue varying that later to get a brighter or darker sound thru TD. But I really hate having that MVT module installed, just more stuff inside the guitar, and it occurred to me that with Tone Dexter I didn't need it! Without TD, it really helps the sound, but TD should be able to deal with that, right? I installed a new Trance-M last weekend, and skipped the MVT control completely, and it sure enough it sounds great with ToneDexter. Since ToneDexter handles making the pickup sound right, and I have the tone controls on TD for fine tweaking, I can just skip that MVT control!
Doug, you're not helping my GAS attack for a Tondexter. :-)
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  #25  
Old 11-13-2017, 07:40 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
When I originally trained a trance system, I had the MVT tone wheel set in the middle - that's how it is in the video demo I posted a few weeks ago. I had no issue varying that later to get a brighter or darker sound thru TD. But I really hate having that MVT module installed, just more stuff inside the guitar, and it occurred to me that with Tone Dexter I didn't need it! Without TD, it really helps the sound, but TD should be able to deal with that, right? I installed a new Trance-M last weekend, and skipped the MVT control completely, and it sure enough it sounds great with ToneDexter. Since ToneDexter handles making the pickup sound right, and I have the tone controls on TD for fine tweaking, I can just skip that MVT control!
That's a very good point Doug. I recently installed the VT module with my Amulet but although it's nice have volume at the soundhole, I didn't really like adding more to the guitar. I kept the original battery for it to just be the straight M version so I might go back to that. My only small issue with the Amulet is that I am getting slight hiss when I turn it up. I wonder if maybe one of the transducers is not making full contact with the soundboard.
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  #26  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:07 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Petty you should call Gary Hull you might have a defective unit. There is a voltage converter in the preamp that could produce hiss I guess. I have not such problems.

PS: I also train my IRs with the tone full open. However, I like to keep at least a volume wheel in the guitar. Also I like the idea to be able to dial a decent sound without outboard gear if necessary, so I stick to my amulet M-VT

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  #27  
Old 11-14-2017, 08:35 AM
Vancebo Vancebo is online now
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This thread caused me to drool on my keyboard. I think I need help.

Question for TD users. I like to hit the body of my guitar for percussion effects. A regular UST doesn't transfer that sound to the speaker well at all. My Dazzos do that very well. Not just like a mic but close. How does that transfer through the TD? Does it come through?
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  #28  
Old 11-14-2017, 08:45 AM
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I was going to start my own TD thread for some questions but I'll add mine to Vancebo's since this thread is still relatively young:

1. How does the TD perform in live settings? I read through many of the very long threads on the TD and I seem to remember some having issues with using it live. I also remember someone asking for videos of a TD being used in live settings but receiving no answers or links.

2. Where would a TD lie in a pedal board setup with say, a looper, a volume pedal and a couple of effects?

3. Last, and biggest question for me: I play fingerstyle with no nails so my tone is largely soft and muted. Would I train the TD this way as well? What would happen if I trained the TD using a pick? Would that then give the fingerstyle played guitar more of a pick sound? Can you blend multiple maps (forget what they are called)? In other words, could I record a training session with both fingerstyle and pick style and blend the two?

We are just starting to play out a bit and at higher volumes my tone can be a challenge to make sound really nice. I'm thinking the TD might be something that could help with that especially if I can blend some pick tone in with my fingerstyle but I also what to make sure that the TD is finding itself to be useful in live settings by the average user.

Thanks in advance for any advice or opinions.
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  #29  
Old 11-14-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancebo View Post
This thread caused me to drool on my keyboard. I think I need help.

Question for TD users. I like to hit the body of my guitar for percussion effects. A regular UST doesn't transfer that sound to the speaker well at all. My Dazzos do that very well. Not just like a mic but close. How does that transfer through the TD? Does it come through?
TD can't output something that isn't there to start with, so if your UST doesn't pickup body percussion, it can't add it back in. With a Dazzo, TD will work fine, and will transmit the body percussion because the Dazzo does product those sounds. The easiest way to think of TD is as a very smart EQ - it makes things sound "better", but it doesn't add, subtract or generate any sounds of its own.
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  #30  
Old 11-14-2017, 11:51 AM
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I think you will find that your playing style during training has minimal influence on the resulting WaveMap. The training algorithm focuses on the difference between pickup sound and mic sound, and seeks to minimize that difference. I have trained TD probably 10,000+ times during development, and have not seen major effects based on picking style. Playing the full range of instrument is beneficial. Mic placement, especially with respect to the sound hole, has a significant effect. Also, during the first segment of training where certain gains are established, what you plays matters more. In particular it is good to avoid dwelling on notes that correspond to the fundamental body resonances of the guitar, which are usually around G# on the bass E string, and around F on the D string. I usually just strum the upper 4 strings at the 5th fret during level setting phase for best results.
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