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  #1  
Old 09-10-2017, 03:27 PM
songman2 songman2 is offline
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Default Changing tuners on J45 and Hummingbird

Hi all.

I want to change the stock Grover Rotomatics (1:14 ratio) on my two Gibsons to something more smooth and with a higher ratio (1:18 or better). I would strongly prefer a type which is just a drop-in, without need for drilling or anything. After checking what is available and doing a search on various forums I thought the Gotoh's 510 were the best choice. Is this indeed (still) the case or are there better alternatives?

Thanks, cheers, Bob.
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Old 09-10-2017, 05:16 PM
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The easiest upgrade would be to replace those 14:1 Rotomatics with 18:1 Rotomatics!
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...d3_Tuners.html

Gotoh make an 18:1 'drop-in' Grover Rotomatic replacement too.
Allparts.
TK-7740-010 chrome around US$50.00
TK-7740-002 gold around US$70.00
https://www.allparts.com/TK-7740-010...ys_p_3940.html

These Wilkinson 18:1 Grover replacements are incredibly cheap.
http://www.guitarfetish.com/Full-Siz...rs_p_4400.html

My choice would be the Gotoh 'drop-in' replacement.
I did a tuner swap on my Alvarez baritone to genuine Grover Rotomatics 18:1's about 3 years ago.
They're OK but not a huge improvement over the factory tuners.
If I did it again I'd go with Gotoh.
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Last edited by Brucebubs; 09-10-2017 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 09-10-2017, 06:10 PM
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I put in the gold Gotohs that Bruce suggested. Drop ins, no drilling. I got tiny gold wood screws at Lowe's.
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Old 09-10-2017, 06:39 PM
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I did the swap for the gotohs very easy and they look better and are considerably lighter than the Grover's. They do leave a slight footprint but not very noticeable. Mine came with the pearloid tuner buttons which are Ok but I would prefer ivoroid.
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Old 09-10-2017, 06:48 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Bruce answered your question before I could: get the Gotoh drop-in replacements. They're more accurate and more reliable than any tuners that Grover makes (says the sad voice of experience...)

Be aware that there are three different sizes of Grover Rotomatics in use by guitar manufacturers these days: full size, mid-size and minis. They have their mounting screws in different places, so make sure you get right replacements for the tuners on your guitar.

Hope this helps.


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  #6  
Old 09-10-2017, 08:08 PM
Mad Rose Mad Rose is offline
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Default Changing tuners on J45 and Hummingbird

I'll go in a different direction & suggest a set of Tone-Pro tuners w/ double ring tulip button. TP's tips have great looking coloring. & give your Gibby a Kool vintage vibe. They work great & you'll drop some weight off the Hdstk...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/112413703396
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Old 09-10-2017, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Rose View Post
I'll go in a different direction & suggest a set of Tone-Pro tuners w/ double ring tulip button. TP's tips have great looking coloring. & give your Gibby a Kool vintage vibe. They work great & you'll drop some weight off the Hdstk...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/112413703396
Those are cool but,
- They're only 15:1 ratio
- They have a push fit bushing that is too small for the existing post hole in the OP's headstock. A set of 'reduction bushes' will need to be purchased to fit them.
- They have 2 locating screws per tuner so holes will need to be drilled in the back of the headstock.
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2011 - Martin JDP 2 #71/71
2014 - Alvarez ABT60 Baritone
2015 - Kittis RBJ-195 Jumbo
2012 - Dan Dubowski#61
2012 - Epiphone EJ-200/N
2012 - Huss & Dalton MJ Custom
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:27 PM
Mad Rose Mad Rose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucebubs View Post
Those are cool but,

- They're only 15:1 ratio

- They have a push fit bushing that is too small for the existing post hole in the OP's headstock. A set of 'reduction bushes' will need to be purchased to fit them.

- They have 2 locating screws per tuner so holes will need to be drilled in the back of the headstock.


Yes , they are 15:1 ratio & those are the press-in type (my bad). Tone-pro's also have the screw on type as well. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate drilling another mounting screw hole in hdstk to have this type of tuner on a J-45 instead of Grovers...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122619615117
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Rose View Post
Yes , they are 15:1 ratio & those are the press-in type (my bad). Tone-pro's also have the screw on type as well. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate drilling another mounting screw hole in hdstk to have this type of tuner on a J-45 instead of Grovers...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122619615117
Those are cool and I agree, they would look great on a Gibson.
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2014 - Alvarez ABT60 Baritone
2015 - Kittis RBJ-195 Jumbo
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2012 - Epiphone EJ-200/N
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Old 09-10-2017, 11:12 PM
Mad Rose Mad Rose is offline
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deleted ~ double post....

Last edited by Mad Rose; 09-10-2017 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 09-10-2017, 11:29 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Yes, you can get Kluson-style tuners and they look cool on a Gibson headstock, but they're even more inaccurate than Grover Rotomatics. The Rotomatics are quite a bit better.

Gotoh also makes Kluson-style gears, which are the most accurate Kluson types available. But the Gotoh drop-in replacements for Rotomatics are more accurate still, and have the additional benefit of being less expensive.

If you ask me how I know this, it's simple: I've owned a number of Gibsons equipped with Klusons, both original Kluson brand and the various copies made by Schaller, Gotoh and the modern Chinese-made Klusons (which are pretty bad, frankly.) Of the guitars where I've tried various versions of these tuners, I still have one with Gotoh Klusons on it: my Gibson Advanced Jumbo.

Those tuners on that guitar are accurate, so I've kept them on there. I also had an older instrument with American-made Klusons from the 1950's that were good tuners.

But the rest of the Kluson and Kluson-style gears that I've put on and taken off of my instruments have been very disappointing from an accuracy standpoint.

So what it really comes down to is what's most important to Bob. If it's putting Klusons on it for an air of authenticity and visual mojo, that's fine. But if the goal is getting better tuner accuracy without having to drill any new holes, this reasonably priced Gotoh tuner is by far and away the best choice:



˙˙˙

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller
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Old 09-10-2017, 11:39 PM
Mad Rose Mad Rose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hampton View Post
So what it really comes down to is what's most important to Bob. If it's putting Klusons on it for an air of authenticity and visual mojo, that's fine. But if the goal is getting better tuner accuracy without having to drill any new holes, this reasonably priced Gotoh tuner is by far and away the best choice:
True Wade, but Tonepros are VG tuners. With them, you can have the best of both worlds.

><><

fwiw: You could use the TP set I orig posted in conjunction w/ 10mm (3/8") conversion bushings. You would then be more in keeping w/ Vintage appearance. The indiscernible part of this would the be the possibility of having 'raccoon eyes' that might be apparent from the existing Grovers' washers that sometimes are visible once...the washers are removed!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/222630603289

I've converted a few Gibson's that had Grovers kidneys' over to vintage style tuners w/o to much issue. I did have to refinish the hdstk on this one due the deep impressions left behind from the washers being over-tightened...

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Old 09-10-2017, 11:49 PM
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That does look great - something about Gibson and that style that just seems to work.

The washer suggestion with the push fit bushes - didn't Martin start doing it like that until owners began experiencing annoying buzzing from the headstock that was cured by simply removing the washers?
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2011 - Martin JDP 2 #71/71
2014 - Alvarez ABT60 Baritone
2015 - Kittis RBJ-195 Jumbo
2012 - Dan Dubowski#61
2012 - Epiphone EJ-200/N
2012 - Huss & Dalton MJ Custom
2018 - Rickenbacker 4003 Fireglo
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:11 AM
Mad Rose Mad Rose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucebubs View Post
The washer suggestion with the push fit bushes - didn't Martin start doing it like that until owners began experiencing annoying buzzing from the headstock that was cured by simply removing the washers?
Not sure why washers came w/ different types of tuners w/ press-in bushes & some did not? Waverly started using them later on also...IIRC. I have a '87 Collings OM that does not have washers, while my 2 Martin Jubers' did. The washers on them have since been removed. Conversion bushings do not come w/ washers. They're meant to use with vintage style tuners w/ 1/4" shafts & where hdstk bores are 3/8".

The washers that come w/ Grovers' are huge imo & simply add to the cluttering of the hdstk. By now, you might guess I'm not particularly fond of Grovers. Just too clunky for me. OTOH: I really like Grover's 18:1 Sta-tite tuners...

Last edited by Mad Rose; 09-11-2017 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:35 AM
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I have no complaints with 18:1 Sta-Tites too!

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1972 - Takamine D-70
1980 - Morris B-50
2002 - Guild F-412
2009 - Martin Grand J12-40E Special
2011 - Martin JDP 2 #71/71
2014 - Alvarez ABT60 Baritone
2015 - Kittis RBJ-195 Jumbo
2012 - Dan Dubowski#61
2012 - Epiphone EJ-200/N
2012 - Huss & Dalton MJ Custom
2018 - Rickenbacker 4003 Fireglo
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