Tone: 12 Frets vs 14 Frets

[stringjunky]

I'm referring to the 12-fret guitars where the bridge is pushed back. Everything else being equal, do 12-fretters tend towards a bassier balance with not so ringing trebles?

[llew]

Not at all. The 12 fret guitars I have are very balanced and they are Martin's? Have a Gruhn Custom D-28 12 fret that sings. And a short run LAGS custom D-15S 12 fret that is especially good for finger picking. But strums well too. To my ear the 12 fret model have a rounder/fuller tone where their 14 fret counter parts are a bit more "sharp" in their attack. And on my 12 fret Martin dreads I use light gauge (.12) strings but on my 14 fret dreads I use medium gauge (.13) strings? Sounds kind of crazy but it works for me?

[Pippin]

Originally Posted by stringjunky62

I'm referring to the 12-fret guitars where the bridge is pushed back. Everything else being equal, do 12-fretters tend towards a bassier balance with not so ringing trebles?

IMHO and limited experience, no. The difference is more on the overall tone quality rather than the bass-treble equalization.

My 12 fret Pono D (DS20 mahogany-Sitka spruce), when compared with the 14 fret sibling with otherwise identical specs (D20), has more of an airy and resonance (I believe some call it sweeter) sound that gives a "bigger" sonic presence (fill the room). The treble is more robust and if anything I would say my 12 fret D has more treble presence than the 14 fret.

The 12 fret Dreadnaught is my favorite guitar. A modest cutway would make it ideal.

Pp

[Pippin]

Originally Posted by llew

Not at all. The 12 fret guitars I have are very balanced and they are Martin's? Have a Gruhn Custom D-28 12 fret that sings. And a short run LAGS custom D-15S 12 fret that is especially good for finger picking. But strums well too. To my ear the 12 fret model have a rounder/fuller tone where their 14 fret counter parts are a bit more "sharp" in their attack. And on my 12 fret Martin dreads I use light gauge (.12) strings but on my 14 fret dreads I use medium gauge (.13) strings? Sounds kind of crazy but it works for me?

Agree! and same here - I put 12 gauge light string on my 12 fret D, and 13 gauge medium on my 14 fret.

Honestly, to my ears, they simply sound different, and neither is better than the other, just... different. Our ears are kind of unique, so I think you should listen to sound clips of the same guitar built as a 12 vs a 14-fretter. There's a lot of Taylor 812 videos you can watch with both varieties. I went through this when looking, and with Taylors I like how they sound as 12-fretted guitars.

[zmf]

Yes, there's a difference. The 12 fretters are maybe more bassy in general, but not necessarily a loss of trebles. I'd say they're more mellow and rich. A fatter tone. This is based on comparing the 12s and 14s from Martin and Collings. I'm not a big fan of the Collings tone, but I like their 000 12 fretters, which have less of the brightness (I know, this is disputable).

When I did the same search, I ended up with a Froggy Bottom H12, which definitely doesn't give away bass or treble.

[stringjunky]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm toying with the idea of having a short-scale, 12 fret cutaway 000 made. I currently have a 14 fret shortscale (24.75") 000 without a cutaway. This guitar has a warm sound with a fairly firm bass and I'd like to loosen it a little bit on the next one but would rather not take to much of a hit on the treble. Ultimately, a chat with my luthier is in order but I thought I'd ask a general question here. I suppose I'm looking for more sustain in the bass strings without increasing body size.

My 12-fret all-mahogany Martin dread was cannon. Louder everything: bass, mids, and highs. My 12-fret Waterloo does seem to have more bass than the 14-fret version, but not at the expense of trebles.

But remember: there are many variables involved here. The Martin had a mahogany top, and the Waterloo has a maple body, so it's hard to make accurate generalizations about the effect of the 12-fret design without taking other factors into consideration, including bracing.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by Willie Voltaire

My 12-fret all-mahogany Martin dread was cannon. Louder everything: bass, mids, and highs. My 12-fret Waterloo does seem to have more bass than the 14-fret version, but not at the expense of trebles.

But remember: there are many variables involved here. The Martin had a mahogany top, and the Waterloo has a maple body, so it's hard to make accurate generalizations about the effect of the 12-fret design without taking other factors into consideration, including bracing.

Yeah, I know there's a lot of variables. I do have a sort of reference point in my current guitar which was built by the guy that would do the next one. He could likely tell me what effect it would have moving the bracing.

[min7b5]

All else being equal -which is never the case- I personally would just describe the twelve fret design as having a little more of everything. In particular more power and projection, less compression...

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by min7b5

All else being equal -which is never the case- I personally would just describe the twelve fret design as having a little more of everything. In particular more power and projection, less compression...

Do you think that's because the bridge is in a more efficient part of the soundboard?

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by stringjunky62

Do you think that's because the bridge is in a more efficient part of the soundboard?

Yes. For sure.

And to probably a much smaller extent, twelve fret guitars often will have a bridge with a smaller footprint, and slotted headstock, which has a greater break angle after the nut.

But again, in opinion, it's mostly about the location of the bridge. It's like a classical guitar with piano strings.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by min7b5

Yes. For sure.

And to probably a much smaller extent, twelve fret guitars often will have a bridge with a smaller footprint, and slotted headstock, which has a greater break angle after the nut.

But again, in opinion, it's mostly about the location of the bridge. It's like a classical guitar with piano strings.

Thanks Eric. I'm warming up to the idea.

[skinnerb]

A growing popularity is on the side of 13 fret guitars. Seems like the best of both worlds to me.

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by stringjunky62

I'm referring to the 12-fret guitars where the bridge is pushed back. Everything else being equal, do 12-fretters tend towards a bassier balance with not so ringing trebles?

No.

The primary difference is that the resonance accentuates the fundamental and suppresses some of the harmonics (overtones).

Some folks may perceive this is more bass since overtones (by definition) are higher pitches than the fundamental.
Some folks may perceive this as more treble since the lowered overtones means more clarity and note separation.

They can have a bit more sustain as well, but not necessarily, since the bracing obviously has to shift with the bridge placement.