Guitar Overpowering my Voice

[natstrat79]

My advice if you are still working on improving your voice is to keep at it with what you've got for awhile. I didn't really start singing seriously until four years ago when I was 30. Growing up I never sang. My parents called me the ventriloquist dummy as I just moved my mouth from the back row at all my school programs as a child. At thirty years old I decided I wanted to learn to sing while I played guitar for my own enjoyment. I had good luck with the all mahogany martins like the 000-15 and an old ladder braced Kay at first as anything else over powered my voice. I got a Santa Cruz D/PW rosewood dreadnought in a trade for a vintage amp a few years ago and struggled to sing with it for awhile as it really over powered my voice. I kept at it and it's made me a better singer. My voice has improved to the point to where I sing with that guitar all the time with no thought to it.

[Glennwillow]

A good voice teacher, maybe at a local community college, could really help you develop a stronger singing voice. My oldest son and his wife are both part time voice teachers at the local community college and they have worked miracles with people who want to become better singers. I have been astounded at some of the results I have heard.

I grew up singing since I was a child -- I don't ever remember a time that I was not singing with the radio or on my own. But I have learned that most people aren't like this, and they have to learn how to sing. Many people believe that the human voice is the hardest instrument to master.

- Glenn

[kydave]

Originally Posted by CycleBob

looking for a bit of advice: I play guitar and sing, but don't have a very strong voice and find myself overpowered by the volume of the guitar a lot when I'm using a pick (I'm 50/50 fingerpicker and strummer).

I can play more quietly and gently, but i feel like that really only suites some more mellow songs.

I very rarely play plugged in. My main axe is a Breedlove Premier Concert. I feel like it's nicely balanced and not ridiculously loud. I usually use Martin PB strings - should I try something else?

Any thoughts appreciated.

This is simply a matter of practice and developing both your singing skills and your guitar playing skills. No acoustic guitar which isn't plugged in is so inherently loud as to be able to drown out a normal human voice when played appropriately.

Go to it & have fun!

[woodbox]

In addition to the learned advice from the previous posts, perhaps some guidance with "mic dynamics" could be in order.

Some mics are designed to be right up on them, while others you can back away from.
Being two inches away at voice volume 5 (lets say for illustration)
vs being 1/4 inch away at voice volume 2 might yield the same volume out of the speakers.
Leaning in close to the mic singing softly, or throwing your voice at it from a distance, will get different results in tone and inflection, but perhaps similar volume out front.
Just saying, learning how to use your mic in new ways might be a factor here.

That all said, guitar choice makes a difference to me, especially when playing un-amplified.
As suggested previously, I often prefer a Mahogany guitar, like my Gibson J45 Standard or my Martin 000-18 over a Rosewood guitar, or my Martin Jumbo Maple.
My Taylor 714CE is an exception, but it has a Cedar top that naturally attenuates some of the Rosewoods power and tonal complexity.

It's developing the balance of reining in a strong guitar and increasing vocal volume.
Good luck and I applaud your efforts to get the vocal out front where it can connect with your audience.

--EDIT added later:
Just above my post, kydave's comment about a guitar "played appropriately" is a major key here.
Please filter my post with the knowledge that I am not a naturally skilled guitar player, and therefore rely on other factors to compensate for that.

[cotten]

Originally Posted by CycleBob

A lot of good advice here. Glad I asked.

In answer to some of the questions: there's definitely scope to improve my vocal technique and projection. I have done some lessons on this and it's improving... maybe... probably I agree that's the longerterm solution.

Thanks for the responses.

Another tip: Make sure you are singing in the right range for your voice, neither too high nor too low. Many untrained singers are unaware of how dramatically this can affect the carrying power of their voice. This is especially true if the song is pitched too low. Growling may be fine with good mic technique, but it won't carry very far without amplification. Same with songs that are so high that they force the singer into "falsetto." It made a star out of Frankie Valli, but relatively few men can project that register well without amplification.

Find the range where your voice is its strongest and most expressive, and sing there. Adjust your guitar playing to suit.

cotten

[Desolationrow]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

If this is your guitar and if that recording is true to the sound of the instrument plugged into your Loudbox Mini I think you would need to sing with some power to be heard over it clearly.


Without knowing how you play and how you sing it's hard to say if the guitar really is an issue. Some guitars have overtones that shimmer way above and below the mid-range and step right into that pocket in the EQ where the average male voice needs to own in order to be heard clearly. What I think works best for that is something with a lot of mid-range, few over-tones and short sustain. If attempting to do some adjustments, just remember volume alone isn't the issue. It's separation of frequencies. So you could try pushing up mid-range and pulling back highs and lows and just experiment a bit. You may find something you're happy with.

Guitars are tools and some models that don't seem so strong in the showroom against other makes and models are actually just what you want for certain situations. If you want to know what works best look no further than the successful singer-songwriters who play mostly acoustic-vocal arrangements who tend to sing in a softer voice or just a voice that doesn't use a lot of range. A few instruments that stand out for this group are the Gibson J-45, Gibson J-200 and Martin D35. There are many others you could add to the list. The re-voiced Taylor 510 also comes to mind.

If you're lucky enough to have a Guitar Center with private audition rooms, I'd suggest taking a recorder with you and try singing and playing a few minutes with some of these and other models. Take it home and listen and see if there is some magic happening that justifies a new guitar. If not it may just be technique you need to work on.

This also made me think of a video Collings Guitars put up a while back where Bill Collings talks about the new T series. His insights about overtones and need for mid-range focused instruments starts are 1:57 into the video.

Great answer!!im a singer songwriter too, can you make a list of best guitars for that purpose? thanks a lot

[Tico]

Originally Posted by CycleBob

... I can play more quietly and gently, but i feel like that really only suites some more mellow songs. ...

I'd work on the skill of playing all styles with less volume.

[rokdog49]

IMHO, working with vocals and a guitar is an art form. Some guitars make it easier, some make it harder. I love the challenge.

[martingitdave]

Try different pick materials until you find one soft enough. You're looking to replicate your fingers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by Desolationrow

Great answer!!im a singer songwriter too, can you make a list of best guitars for that purpose? thanks a lot

Glad to be of some help.

There's a lot more going on than the choice of materials. It also depends on your vocal technique, your vocal range, how strong your attack is, etc... If you play a good amount of lead and rhtyhm mixed you may want something with more overtones than a player who just plays mostly rhythm. There is no one shoe fits all. If you play plugged-in the type of pickup you use can make a difference. The best example I can give of the difference a guitar can make is one I've made several times here. Listen to recent James Taylor videos of him singing Fire & Rain or Carolina on my mind with his Olson vs older videos with him singing with his Gibson J-50. When you say "better or worse" you're in subjective territory so I respect that some may prefer modern James Taylor with his Olson on these songs, but what I'm hearing when I listen is a great singer altering his technique to keep the vocal above the guitar. It works, but I don't think it's optimal compared to what he was able to get before. I'm surprised other musicians can't hear this difference, but I respect those who hear this differently and I have no interest in a debate on it. It's been done here before.

With that in mind-

As I said in my reply to OP, what I think works best are instruments without a lot of mid-range or over tones. This leaves a lot of room in mix for even a softer vocal part. Some guitars good for this purpose are: Gibson J-45, Songwriter, Gibson J-200, Martin D35, Taylor 510... For boutique builds the Collings T series. On a budget: Epiphone AJ45ME, the new ladder braced Epiphone Zenith archtops are actually being marketed for the singer-songwriter with these attributes. Blueridge BR40, BG40 (Yes 40 instead of 140, the laminated models have shorter sustain). There are a lot of others. Alvarez and Takamine models with solid Cedar top with laminate back and sides. All mahogany guitars are also good for this. Vintage Guild M20, Martin 000-15M if you mix strumming with finger style.

If you have a song with a lead vocal and a rhythm guitar, the rhythm guitar should NEVER overpower the lead vocal. It tone shouldn't outstay its welcome. In an unplugged setting you don't have a sound guy to tweak the EQ, playing with a softer attack will not solve the problem because then there will be imbalance between the volume of the voice and volume of the guitar.

Every instrument occupies a frequency range and the guitar and human voice are going to have a lot of cross over regardless of what you do, but if you can find a guitar the cuts the highs and lows and focuses on the mids and keeps the sustain to a minimum it's going to change the way you approach singing. You're not going to be straining to sing over the guitar. The more separation you have with the guitars natural voice and your voice the more comfortable you'll feel increasing the attack. You won't have to worry so much about the volume of the guitar.

The best thing you can do is experiment with a few different guitars, record yourself singing with them and spend some time listening to the recording. You'll find that just like different guitars can inspire you to play in a new way, a different guitar can also inspire your vocal technique in unique ways. For me this was a subconscious thing.

[Glennwillow]

As I was listening to Toby Walker play in this thread I realized that stuff some of us are used to in how to combine voice and guitar may not be obvious to others. I'd recommend watching Toby play and sing in this thread as just one example of how to blend voice with guitar.

You'll notice that he palm mutes the guitar so that it's less loud when he is singing. If you are not attuned to it, you might not realize he's doing it because the beat is still there underneath the song. But Toby is purposely leaving room for his voice, making sure that there is only one solo at a time -- either voice or guitar, but not both. When he's not singing, he doesn't mute the guitar as much, and the guitar gets considerably louder. This is one of the rules of making music, not just for a solo performer but also for a band -- only one solo at a time. Otherwise the song suffers because the guitar is competing with the voice or one band member is competing with another band member.

Toby is using a microphone on his voice and I believe a pickup on his guitar, but the technique is important with or without amplification. Here is Toby playing without any mic on voice or guitar except for the mic picking up the overall performance for the video as if you were in the room with Toby.

You'll notice that none of this is related to the materials of the guitar. You can palm mute any guitar and control its volume. Or you can change how hard you are picking the guitar to control volume. Either way, the player controls the volume, not the guitar.

I hope these examples might be helpful.

- Glenn

[wada]

To add a wonderful singer-songwriter guitar to the mix, I just picked up the Gibson hp 415. Your voice just sits right in the sweet spot and it has nice tonal balance.

[GibbyPrague]

Get a J-45 and never buy a Martin rosewood dread if you are concerned about the guitar overpowering the vocals.

[Mr. Scott]

Originally Posted by cotten

Another tip: Make sure you are singing in the right range for your voice, neither too high nor too low. Many untrained singers are unaware of how dramatically this can affect the carrying power of their voice. This is especially true if the song is pitched too low. Growling may be fine with good mic technique, but it won't carry very far without amplification. Same with songs that are so high that they force the singer into "falsetto." It made a star out of Frankie Valli, but relatively few men can project that register well without amplification.

Find the range where your voice is its strongest and most expressive, and sing there. Adjust your guitar playing to suit.

cotten

I thought this too! I was just scrolling through and no-one had mentioned it on the first page and then Wham! This post!
It is very true though. Make sure you are in the right key for you and the song, where you can get the necessary b***s or projection into your singing without being uncomfortable. You can use any guitar you like if you're in the right key.

[Orfeas]

Do not change your guitar if you like the tone/playability. Try to master your string attack. If you sing softly play softer etc. I went from a Martin 00028 (short scale) to a SCGC OM (full scale) and I've had to adjust to the new one because it is louder and with more overtones. Although I do not perform for a living or frequently, I went to a vocal coach for advice first. He helped me figure out the ultimate instrument/vocal projection balance.