Theory - WWHWWWH - Chord construction and more

[WonderMonkey]

EDIT: I don't think all the below is quite right, so I'm thinking .....

Because I am BRILLIANT (sarcasm) and know the notes of my strings I can find what each note on the fretboard is using the fact that there are full steps between all notes with the exception of B<->C and E<->F. Prodigy, I know.

So... I'm going down the trail of learning chord construction and more theory in general and I JUST realized that what I know about the notes on the neck is because I'm always starting in C. I USED to think I was starting in A but that doesn't work out..... I think.

Using my note circle and starting in A we have:
A B C# D E F# G# A

Starting in C we have:
C D E F G A B C

Because I now think I realize all this, and I just looked it up and was confirmed, I should be able to construct chords on paper and then translate that into chords using the various formulas.

[LSemmens]

Your point?

[WonderMonkey]

Originally Posted by LSemmens

Your point?

Good question! I do have a point which I'll post tonight. I made that post then went and confused myself and that's why I made the edit.

Generally I have a note circle (I'll post later) which I understand but I'm trying to then correlate between that and the Circle of Fifths diagram. I'm not getting it even though there are several explanations on it. It may be a case of me trying to run before I can walk and I just don't have enough knowledge to "get it".

[rick-slo]

Not having eidetic memory I find the circle of fifths not very helpful, especially on the fly.

Most useful to me is thinking of the I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII degrees of the scale and the following:

For major keys the I, IV, and V are major chords, the rest are minor
chords (except the VII which is a diminished chord).

Flip that for minor keys:
I, IV, V are minor chords
the rest are major chords (except the II which is diminished).

Besides that, knowing (or hearing) where the scale steps and half steps are located can be applied on the fly.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by WonderMonkey

Good question! I do have a point which I'll post tonight.

I await with bated breath...

Until then, see if this helps:

 Half-steps: |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | 
Major scale: C     D     E  F     G     A     B  C     D     E  F 
CHORDS:
  I = C      C  .  .  .  E  .  .  G
 ii = Dm           D  .  .  F  .  .  .  A
iii = Em                 E  .  .  G  .  .  .  B
 IV = F                     F  .  .  .  A  .  .  C
  V = G                           G  .  .  .  B  .  .  D
 vi = Am                                A  .  .  C  .  .  .  E
vii = Bdim                                    B  .  .  D  .  .  F
.
 Half-steps: |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
Major scale: C     D     E  F     G     A     B  C     D     E  F     G     A
CHORDS:
  I = Cmaj7  C  .  .  .  E  .  .  G  .  .  .  B
 ii = Dm7          D  .  .  F  .  .  .  A  .  .  C
iii = Em7                E  .  .  G  .  .  .  B  .  .  D
 IV = Fmaj7                 F  .  .  .  A  .  .  C  .  .  .  E
  V = G7                          G  .  .  .  B  .  .  D  .  .  F
 vi = Am7                               A  .  .  C  .  .  .  E  .  .  G
vii = Bm7b5                                   B  .  .  D  .  .  F  .  .  .  A

You can see how the scale dictates the chord intervals, which in turn dictates the chord type.

[WonderMonkey]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Not having eidetic memory I find the circle of fifths not very helpful, especially on the fly.

Most useful to me is thinking of the I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII degrees of the scale and the following:

For major keys the I, IV, and V are major chords, the rest are minor
chords (except the VII which is a diminished chord).

Flip that for minor keys:
I, IV, V are minor chords
the rest are major chords (except the II which is diminished).

Besides that, knowing (or hearing) where the scale steps and half steps are located can be applied on the fly.

My "knowledge" is just at the point of the things you mentioned above except being able to do it on the fly. I'm hoping that with time and application I can get there.

[WonderMonkey]

Originally Posted by JonPR

I await with bated breath...

Until then, see if this helps:

 Half-steps: |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | 
Major scale: C     D     E  F     G     A     B  C     D     E  F 
CHORDS:
  I = C      C  .  .  .  E  .  .  G
 ii = Dm           D  .  .  F  .  .  .  A
iii = Em                 E  .  .  G  .  .  .  B
 IV = F                     F  .  .  .  A  .  .  C
  V = G                           G  .  .  .  B  .  .  D
 vi = Am                                A  .  .  C  .  .  .  E
vii = Bdim                                    B  .  .  D  .  .  F
.
 Half-steps: |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
Major scale: C     D     E  F     G     A     B  C     D     E  F     G     A
CHORDS:
  I = Cmaj7  C  .  .  .  E  .  .  G  .  .  .  B
 ii = Dm7          D  .  .  F  .  .  .  A  .  .  C
iii = Em7                E  .  .  G  .  .  .  B  .  .  D
 IV = Fmaj7                 F  .  .  .  A  .  .  C  .  .  .  E
  V = G7                          G  .  .  .  B  .  .  D  .  .  F
 vi = Am7                               A  .  .  C  .  .  .  E  .  .  G
vii = Bm7b5                                   B  .  .  D  .  .  F  .  .  .  A

You can see how the scale dictates the chord intervals, which in turn dictates the chord type.

I like that chart. I made a version of the top one and I see you copied it and added the 7th. The tutorial (Justin Guitar) has not added in the 7th yet but I knew about it from just common sense from knowing the normal triad formula.

[WonderMonkey]

Here was my point. I've already sort of mentioned it above but I'll spell it out here. The biggest question to come out of my point is "Do I care, and why?"

Standard Note Circle, from JustinGuitar.com
I get that for standard guitar playing these are the 12 notes in an octave and I can use it to construct chords, etc.


Below I did the majors, but somehow I forgot to do B. I'll put that in later. It's kind of what JonPR did but I like his better. Also he did the maj7's which I'll add in time.


While trying to resolve a question that was ahead of what I was studying I came across something that I've seen before, which is the Circle of fifths (and fourths). It's below. In reading a few pages on it I'm seeing how easy it is to see the fifths and fourths and a few other things it pointed out. When it goes past he easy stuff I got lost. I'm not there yet.

What I'm trying to do is see how I can use the CO5's to get what I'm seeing in the standard Note Circle. Can I, over time, use the CO5's for more and more things? The Note Circle is a nice visual to quickly construct things and I'd probably print it out and keep it in my folder for times when my brain isn't working, along with the various formulas and charts like I made and JonPR posted.

Question: So... do I actually care about the CO5 AT THIS TIME. Do most people EVER?

EDIT: I'm beginning to think that I can't use the CO5 to replace the Note Circle. I think the CO5 is all about finding what key something is in and easily looking for the 5th's and 4th's. I see the staff thingy there which would help me look at a piece of music and see the key if I could not look at the chords in the song and figure it out (I can't, yet). The notes in the inner circle are still a mystery to me and I'm not going to focus on it just yet.

One thing I'm trying to NOT do, which I have tendencies to actually DO, to to prepare to do, yet not do. I tend to spend a bunch of time studying things, like the guitar, and then I find myself a week later and I've done a minimum of playing. So.... I'm trying to stay JUST AHEAD of my playing with studying.

[mr. beaumont]

I say forget both circles if they're confusing and memorize the sharps and flats in every key.

In every major scale, each letter of the musical alphabet appears only once. So if you know what's sharp or flat, you have the scale.

The benefit of the circle of fifths is, going counterclockwise, we go up in the #of flats...ie, F has one flat. Bb has 2. Etc.

So really, I think memorizing the order of flats/sharps is important... this is the classic mnemonic, battle ends and down goes father Charles (for flats) and father Charles goes down and ends battle (sharps)

Then, know how to identify key signature just by the amount flats/sharps.

As far as the "why is this important," you're on track--now you know the chords that "belong" to any key. Mind you, that doesn't mean they're the only ones you can use...

[Howard Klepper]

Does everyone else actually recognize this string of letters and understand what it means? I'm afraid I don't get out a lot, and I'm not on Facebook.

[Wyllys]

Howard...

W=whole step, H=half step.

To everyone else:

Do re mi fa sol la ti do and I, IV, V.

Doh!!!

[stanron]

Or in the UK

W=Tone

H=Semitone

WWHWWWH = TTSTTTS

Simples

[stanron]

It's just getting cold here in East Manchester. California sounds nice.

[jseth]

Well, all of your "stuff" is well and good, although EXTREMELY confusing for the beginner, I should think...

And I have to point out one common error/misconception in your "chord scales" that several have ascribed to and no one else has caught or commented upon...

That is, that the VII chord is either a HALF DIMINISHED chord or a b7minor 7 chord... it is NOT a full diminished chord... may seem trivial at first, but "down the road" it will serve you well to have this ingrained in your little brain!

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by jseth

Well, all of your "stuff" is well and good, although EXTREMELY confusing for the beginner, I should think...

And I have to point out one common error/misconception in your "chord scales" that several have ascribed to and no one else has caught or commented upon...

That is, that the VII chord is either a HALF DIMINISHED chord or a b7minor 7 chord... it is NOT a full diminished chord... may seem trivial at first, but "down the road" it will serve you well to have this ingrained in your little brain!

You have the diminished (eg B-D-F), half diminished 7th (eg B-D-F-A), and diminished 7th (eg B-D-F-Ab). Using the diatonic scale notes you can get the diminished and half diminished.
One needs an accidental note (a flatted seventh) for the diminished 7th. I guess that is what you are getting at.