The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-16-2014, 06:58 AM
ukejon ukejon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6,493
Default One mic concept

Interesting idea. Logical, although perhaps too simplistic. It may lead to a "boomy left, tinny right" sound:

http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscella...-guitars/21691

Wonder if adding a slightly more ambient mic set back to get more of the room might help out?
__________________
My YouTube Page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon

2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype)
2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover
2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar
2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany
1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce
2014 Rainsong OM1000N2

....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-16-2014, 08:14 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,414
Default

Cute, but no amount of EQing is going to substitute for the spatial information that you'll obtain from recording sound from two different microphone locations. That's the whole point of stereo miking.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-16-2014, 09:16 AM
Davis Webb Davis Webb is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,169
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
Cute, but no amount of EQing is going to substitute for the spatial information that you'll obtain from recording sound from two different microphone locations. That's the whole point of stereo miking.
I think he addresses this well.

"However, equalization can create a stereo image from a mono signal, resulting in a spacious, big sound that is particularly well suited to solo guitar. Furthermore, you can dedicate your gear budget to a single, high-quality mic, rather than two mics of lesser quality.To create this virtual-miking perspective, first copy the original, monaural guitar track to two additional tracks. One track will be the “finger noises/high frequencies” track. Solo it, and set its EQ for a highpass filter response with a 24dB/octave slope and frequency around 1kHz. Pan this track right, because if you’re facing a guitarist, the finger and neck noises will be to the listener’s right.The second copied track is the “guitar body ” track. Solo it, and set its EQ response to lowpass, with the slope to 24dB/octave, and frequency at about 400Hz. Pan this track left, as it provides the guitar body’s “boom.” While monitoring all three tracks, pan the original track to center and bring up its level. The result should be a big, rich guitar sound with a great stereo image, but we’re not done quite yet. The balance of the three tracks is crucial, as are the EQ frequencies."

Spatial information can be used to trick the ear. The old Carver frequency cancelling system when used, could place a band member in a specific spot in the listener's room. When you listened to a recording like William Tell Overture on the Carver holophonic processer, you heard the violens, with the cellos just to their right, the percussion behind them, they were mapping a 3D spatial sound. Equalization and processing can do a lot more than we often think.

http://www.audioscope.net/carver-cm1...8.html?image=0

This was the old Carver setup with holophonic processing. Essentially, each speaker emitted cancellation frequenices so if you set up the field right for listening, ie, regular stereo with the position, it placed objects in 3D space.

These suggestions on the link point to the fact you can create space with processing, beyond that of simple reverb ambience.
__________________
Larrivee, Gibson, Ovation, Strat, Tele
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-16-2014, 09:27 AM
runamuck runamuck is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,539
Default

I've done something similar to this a number of times with one additional ingredient: the left or right track can be nudged a few milliseconds to create the slightest phasing and delay which increases the sense of stereo seperation.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-16-2014, 10:37 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 11,907
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
Cute, but no amount of EQing is going to substitute for the spatial information that you'll obtain from recording sound from two different microphone locations. That's the whole point of stereo miking.
In a subjective personal preference sense yes, in an objective method for audio reproduction not so much.

Of course everybody tastes are different and of course two mics is a perfectly valid and time honored method. But so is single mic.
To clarify there is nothing inherent or magical about two mics, except time domain difference, that is it.

That said :First the EQing in the article is primarily providing frequency separation not spacial , the panning provides the primary spacial separation. Same as it does in a two mic method. For example that is one reason some producers prefer two different types of mics. Because in a matched pair there will be some very very slight difference of frequency responce because of two different locations. Where a pair different mics with the same location difference the freq. difference will or can be more pronounced or noticeable.

And in a much lesser sense the fact that providing a (distinction) of different freq characteristic (i.e. EQ), can in fact also help reenforce a spacial feeling weather it is from the natural inherent location difference in a matched pair, different mics, or in EQing two duplicated single mic tracks differently. Not to mention the fact that if you slightly time slip one of two tracks creating essentially the same time domain difference as having two mics.

Another additional factor provided by a two mic technique is that a time domain differential is being created and in point of fact introduces some degree of phase difference (arrival time at the mic diaphragm) . Which is in fact in a strict sense is form of distortion. Understanding of course that the amount of distortion we are taking is not intrinsically psychoacoustically either bad or good. After all what we like about tubes is distortion, what we like about analog tape is distortion.
__________________
" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." Albert Einstein
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...


KevWind at Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-16-2014, 10:44 AM
ukejon ukejon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6,493
Default

Great info, Kev. I may try this setup a bit with my Audix SCX25A being the "guitar" mic that gets EQ'd in different ways (low frequencies left, high frequencies right, and full sound center). Then I'll try adding a more ambient "room" mic in the form of a Shure KSM-137 that perhaps is aimed at the guitar over my right shoulder. Sound like a good plan?
__________________
My YouTube Page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon

2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype)
2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover
2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar
2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany
1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce
2014 Rainsong OM1000N2

....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-16-2014, 10:56 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 11,907
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukejon View Post
Interesting idea. Logical, although perhaps too simplistic. It may lead to a "boomy left, tinny right" sound:
Yes very interesting article and I would say yes boomy or tinny if over done.

Not saying this you, but one thing I have noticed is a commonly held AGF community myth is that EQ, is some how inherently or intrinsically bad. Where the truth is "Bad" EQing is bad. The rest depends on circumstance and personal preference.


If the acoustics and frequency response in a given recording room are so good, and the equipment and expertise involved in the recording are so good that no additional EQ is needed that is as fantastic as it is rare.

Lets not forget that probably at least 80% to 90% of all commercial releases have some additional EQ going on even if only in mastering.
__________________
" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." Albert Einstein
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...


KevWind at Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-16-2014, 11:36 AM
el_kabong el_kabong is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Olympic Peninsula
Posts: 1,003
Default

This article reflects - with nearly 100% accuracy - the view held by the engineer that I often work with. For what it's worth, even if my ears don't always agree, this fellow used to be the head engineer at Earl Scruggs studio in Nashville (was also an engineer at MasterMix) and has helped design quite a few high-end studios here in the PNW. I figure he probably knows what he's talking about.

Stereo imaging aside, the real issue here is avoiding phase cancellation, which is something you can't fix with EQ, btw. It's not that you can't avoid (or minimize) it with stereo mic'ing, but you really need to spend a lot time on placement, using the right mic's and knowing full well their pattern characteristics. You will still, almost inevitably, have some degree of phasing issues.

Oh, yeah, in keeping with another comment above (Runamuck's), my mentor also prefers to create the stereo field with delay, rather than EQ (which might or might not be required in any regard). Remember, the stereo image we're (probably) wanting to replicate is the 8" separation between our ears, placed at what ever distance from a mono source....oh well, my guitar happens to be a mono source, don't know about yours.

Any perceived binaural effect is purely a function of the distance and facing angle to the source, plus/minus the fatness of your own head (YMMV ) and, of course, the reflective properties of the room you're in. Accordingly, your perception of a stereo image is all about the level and timing of those original and reflected sound waves hitting your ears at different times. As cited in this fairly recent, relevant, useful, and interesting study: Very near to the source, an 8" separation amounts to only about 0.4 milliseconds and 20 inches produces a 1.5 millisecond delay.

To give the author credit, though, both the speed and reflective character of those waves is, naturally, going to be frequency dependent. Bass frequencies are omnidirectional and we are "attuned" to calibrate our perception of direction and distance at higher frequencies, so - yeah, we can simulate some measure of the effect with panning specific (higher) frequencies, since our "direction detection" is based on both the level and the timing of the signal.

There are, of course, really good reasons you might need to use two mic's....I'm thinking here mostly of the problem with singer/guitarists and ensuring that you're able to get proper levels of both the voice and the instrument without, at the same time, creating the very same phasing issues. Again, having and properly placing the right mic's may be the only solution. That said, I have been very impressed with the more traditional single mic approach, as amply demonstrated by the Milk Carton Kids in this recent Austin City Limits performance.

__________________
~ Music is the cup which holds the wine of silence. ~ Robert Fripp

'98 Martin HD-28VR, '98 Bourgeois Martin Simpson European

Last edited by el_kabong; 03-16-2014 at 11:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-16-2014, 01:16 PM
ukejon ukejon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6,493
Default

Been really into this duo....pretty sure the lead guitar guy is channeling Gillian Welch when he sings.
__________________
My YouTube Page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon

2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype)
2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover
2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar
2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany
1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce
2014 Rainsong OM1000N2

....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-16-2014, 03:17 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,858
Default

I did a quick demo to try the settings suggested in this article. I recorded with an MS pair, so I'd have both the mono track - the mid mic alone - and then could also compare the results to a stereo micing technique. I also compared a plugin I have in Logic that does something very similar, but applies a more complex EQ to each side - sort of like taking every other band of a graphic EQ and cutting it on one side, then doing the opposite on the other.

So here's the comparison - mono, "stereo, GP-style", Logic's stereoizer, then finally real stereo (MS)

https://soundcloud.com/doug-young/st...coustic-guitar
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
Hymns Book: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-16-2014, 03:31 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,955
Default

He is overlooking that one mike records a guitar out of phase with itself since the guitar is a broad sound source - probably one the main reason a guitar is hard to record well. His method does increase the sense of space of course by separating high and low frequencies right and left and the illusion does help reduce the noticeability of the one mike phase effect except in the mid frequencies.

For example:
Stereo

I have my original stereo recording of "Ain't Misbehaving"
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Temp/Stereo.wav

Mono
I took the best sounding half (one mike) of the stereo recording and applied the methods described in the article. I did spend a fair amount of time on it.
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Temp/Mono.wav

Stereo is a more solid sound. The other is relatively thin sounding.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-16-2014, 03:31 PM
ukejon ukejon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6,493
Default

Fascinating. Thanks so much Doug. Here is what I am hearing:

Mono -- Nice, centered, focused acoustic track.
GP method -- More distant sounding and not well balanced.
Logic stereo -- Chorus effect can be heard, almost out-of-phase sounding
M/S stereo -- Gorgeous, full stereo sound, very balanced, not chorus-y

And Rick, thanks to you as well. I hear similar result. The GP stereo method is duller, more distant, far less interesting to the ear. And definitely less stereo separation even with the panning.

I goofed around with this technique as well a little bit but did not hear very good results. I wonder if part of the problem with the GP method is that the two panned EQ'd tracks, while sort of replicating the different tonal attributes of the neck vs. the lower bout, are on their own not very good sounding tracks. Put it this way, if I were doing a stereo setup and heard through my headphones something like what these track sound like with the extreme Low Pass or High Pass setup, I'd move the mic or my guitar to a better position.
__________________
My YouTube Page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon

2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype)
2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover
2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar
2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany
1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce
2014 Rainsong OM1000N2

....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment

Last edited by ukejon; 03-16-2014 at 03:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-16-2014, 03:43 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,858
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukejon View Post
Fascinating. Thanks so much Doug. Here is what I am hearing:

Mono -- Nice, centered, focused acoustic track.
GP method -- More distant sounding and not well balanced.
Logic stereo -- Chorus effect can be heard, almost out-of-phase sounding
M/S stereo -- Gorgeous, full stereo sound, very balanced, not chorus-y

Yeah, the GP approach seems to pull to the bass side if you set all three tracks to even levels. I started that way, and then knocked about half a db off the bass side to get this balance. You could get a number of different sounds depending on how you mix the three tracks, so I could probably improve it. It does create a stereo effect, but it didn't strike me as living up to the claims of the article. I think I'd prefer the mono track with some nice reverb if I had to choose.

I suspect the Logic plugin does more than just EQ, but it doesn't seem to be documented in any detail. Watching a stereo-scope, it really widens the sound, much more than either GP's technique or the real stereo, and is less phase coherent.

I'd definitely take the real stereo any day!
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
Hymns Book: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-16-2014, 03:47 PM
ukejon ukejon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6,493
Default

Quote:
I'd definitely take the real stereo any day
Me too....so, can I have your M/S setup as my birthday present?
__________________
My YouTube Page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon

2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype)
2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover
2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar
2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany
1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce
2014 Rainsong OM1000N2

....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-16-2014, 03:52 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,955
Default

You could spend more time one it. Find the best possible single mike location. Fool around some more with equalization and volume levels.
Perhaps throw in some delay or even pitch shifting. You could spend more time searching for the best reverb. In other words spend a lot of
time trying to get the sound of stereo mic'ing and still not get there. Might as well just record in stereo if that sound is what you are after.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=