The Ecology of Carbon Fiber

[Doubleneck]

Wood vs Carbon Fiber

Got to believe that wood is probably more Eco-Friendly to manufacture but have no real basis for that belief. Obviously I would like to believe it is the opposite but kind of doubt it if all things are considered?

[mchalebk]

As far as waste and byproducts of the production process, I would imagine that wood guitar building is likely more eco-friendly. However, wooden guitars require the harvesting of trees, which isn't always the most environmentally friendly process. Hard to say how the two compare overall.

[Steve Christens]

We've talked about this over at MacNichol's forum before. When you talk about "green" you need to consider:

1) toxicity (both in use and waste produced)
2) carbon footprint (energy used)
3) sustainability of resources

As an industrial chemist I would submit that CF guitars are NOT more "green" than wood - not when you consider the processes to produce carbon fiber and epoxy resin. And good wood may be scarce, but it is renewable.

I love CF guitars, and promote them every chance I get. But I don't play the "green" card as one of the benefits.

[Doubleneck]

That makes logical sense

[ChunkyB]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

That makes logical sense

Haha. I was about to respond with the EXACT same response.

I think the reason guitarists worry is that the tone wood they love takes hundreds of years to grow. I think that wood guitars are ultimately more green, it may just require guitarists in the future to let go of their obsession with brazilian rosewood, or whatever other rare tonewood they love that will take years and years to regrow.

I guess one other thing to consider is the fact that CF guitars will have a much longer life span than wood. I don't think it totally offsets the increased "cost" of producing CF guitars, but there's something to be said for a guitar that will last forever, versus a guitar that will crack and die at some point.

[Doubleneck]

Interesting point, about CF is forever but I bet at some point both end up in a land fill and then the forever works against us. Steve

Originally Posted by ChunkyB

Haha. I was about to respond with the EXACT same response.

I think the reason guitarists worry is that the tone wood they love takes hundreds of years to grow. I think that wood guitars are ultimately more green, it may just require guitarists in the future to let go of their obsession with brazilian rosewood, or whatever other rare tonewood they love that will take years and years to regrow.

I guess one other thing to consider is the fact that CF guitars will have a much longer life span than wood. I don't think it totally offsets the increased "cost" of producing CF guitars, but there's something to be said for a guitar that will last forever, versus a guitar that will crack and die at some point.

[ChunkyB]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Interesting point, about CF is forever but I bet at some point both end up in a land fill and then the forever works against us. Steve

You're absolutely right. Wood will at least decompose. A CF guitar will be there right next to all the dirty diapers for all eternity.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

I would guess that a wood guitar made from recycled materials would be the most eco friendly.

http://laguitarsales.com/pages/3157/...hop_Pallet.htm

[DVGuy]

Isn't CF recyclable?

Couldn't a CF instrument be reclaimed and materials be reused to make a new instrument (or whatever)?

I don't know the answer. I just assumed it was.

[Long813]

Originally Posted by DVGuy

Isn't CF recyclable?

Couldn't a CF instrument be reclaimed and materials be reused to make a new instrument (or whatever)?

I don't know the answer. I just assumed it was.

Most likely. The epoxy or bonding material can probably come apart quite easily with the right equipment.

The raws to make it though, is not what you would call eco-friendly though. Only recycled material can fit that bill (properly).

[ChunkyB]

Originally Posted by DVGuy

Isn't CF recyclable?

Couldn't a CF instrument be reclaimed and materials be reused to make a new instrument (or whatever)?

I don't know the answer. I just assumed it was.

As far as I understand, is it VERY difficult recycle. It would probably be called reclaiming more than recycling, because carbon fiber can't be melted down and reformed like plastic. It is more a process of reusing pieces, from what I understand.

This issue comes up in the cycling industry because carbon fiber bikes are somewhat "brittle". CF bikes are very rigid and will almost never warp or bend. The problem is that they can break, especially if you have a fatty like myself sitting on it. Also, carbon fiber is designed to be strong in specific directions. So, if it endures undue stress, say, on the side of the bike, it could potentially be more prone to failure than aluminum, steel, or titanium.

The problem (as I've heard it) is that, if it does fail, it can't really be recycled. If you get a crack in your aluminum frame, it is a fairly simple process to recycle the raw materials and reuse it. If it's a CF bike, it goes in a landfill. I'm passing on information that I've "learned" through the cycling world, so take it for what it's worth. It makes sense though.

[DVGuy]

Originally Posted by ChunkyB

As far as I understand, is it VERY difficult recycle. It would probably be called reclaiming more than recycling, because carbon fiber can't be melted down and reformed like plastic. It is more a process of reusing pieces, from what I understand.

This issue comes up in the cycling industry because carbon fiber bikes are somewhat "brittle". CF bikes are very rigid and will almost never warp or bend. The problem is that they can break, especially if you have a fatty like myself sitting on it. Also, carbon fiber is designed to be strong in specific directions. So, if it endures undue stress, say, on the side of the bike, it could potentially be more prone to failure than aluminum, steel, or titanium.

The problem (as I've heard it) is that, if it does fail, it can't really be recycled. If you get a crack in your aluminum frame, it is a fairly simple process to recycle the raw materials and reuse it. If it's a CF bike, it goes in a landfill. I'm passing on information that I've "learned" through the cycling world, so take it for what it's worth. It makes sense though.

Yeah, it seems so. I found this in How Stuff Works:

Carbon fiber can't be melted down, and it's not easy to recycle. When it is recycled, the recycled carbon fiber isn't as strong as it was before recycling. Carbon fiber recycled from a car isn't strong enough to be used in building another car. That's a big issue. Having more cars use carbon fiber would save a lot of oil, but it could also generate a lot of waste.

As it stands now, carbon fiber could solve the oil crisis. It's lightweight, durable and safe. But it's also expensive and difficult to recycle.

All that said, a CF guitar is the ONLY workable solution for my specific situation. My climate is so humid that I simply cannot control it sufficiently. I just purchased a "used" Rainsong from a fellow AGF member, and it's been great. I plan to use it for the next 50 years if I'm still around. It may need a refret at some point, obviously, and a new saddle now and then, but if it lasts like it supposed to last, it's just what I needed.

[Steve Christens]

Originally Posted by DVGuy

Isn't CF recyclable?

Couldn't a CF instrument be reclaimed and materials be reused to make a new instrument (or whatever)?

I don't know the answer. I just assumed it was.

I rather doubt it. Fiberglass boats for example are generally cut up with chain saws and dumped in land fills - or taken offshore and sunk. Not much else to do with them.

[mchalebk]

Ah, so when a CF guitar can longer be played (say in about 500 years), it can be sunk and turned into a reef. Sounds eco-friendly to me.

[jonfields45]

I got a chance to play the Taylor Pallet guitar maybe 15 years ago (Diane Magonia, Taylor sales NE US, was my neighbor back then). The strings were definitely past their prime, but I thought that guitar really sounded bad. It was beautifully built. Not all recycling is a good thing... Jon