When a Carbon Fiber classical guitar ?

[gerardo1000]

Apart from the Blackbird, which is a travel guitar, no builder of composite guitars sells a classical. Rainsong built one a few years ago, but it was discontinued.
I did not have the chance to play it, but I guess that the mistake was to just
put nylon strings on a steel string body. I mean: a carbon fiber classical guitar should be designed upfront for a "nylon string" tone, I guess.
I wonder if CA, that has recently shown a great flexibility in the design of its guitars, has a classical in mind for the future ?

[SongwriterFan]

Couldn't you just put nylon strings on a Cargo?

Doesn't somebody sell nylon strings that have the ball ends?

[Dogsnax]

Rainsong used to make a nylon string guitar, the WS9000. They discontinued production a few years ago - reviews were mixed. If you keep your eyes open, you'll see one pop up on eBay now and then. I'm a nylon string players living in the hot, humid south and would love to try a CA nylon string guitar.

[djphelan01]

I was thinking the same thing about a carbon fiber classical guitar. I have the cargo and love it and I would buy a CA classical if they made one.

[jluttwak]

Hi,

I make Blackbird Guitars so I figured I would say hi and get involved. I wanted to point out our Nylon string model is closer to a full-size classical then our steel string is to a full size steel string. It is 650mm scale length and 12 inches wide versus 10.5 with the steel string.

To maximize resonance, the Blackbird Rider nylon string body length and depth are the same as a full size, along with the curve-less design, 1/32 inch thick soundboard, and last but not least light and resonant hollow neck and head construction. So its not a 'travel' guitar in terms of tone, rather a full-size guitar in a small body. I discuss our nylon string model at length on our blog.
http://blackbirdguitars.blogspot.com/

[ageetar]

Hey Jluttwak. Thanks for dropping by. Cool blog.

Oh, and i've tried putting nylons on steel tuners, and it's a difficult task to get them to stay on. They are so elastic you get a lovely birdsnest on the tuners, not to mention they move a lot more than steels, so the string spacing is a little different.

[gerardo1000]

Jluttwag, it is great that you jumped into the discussion.
I am a fan and supporter of carbon fiber guitars, I had many Rainsong, CA and also Emerald.
Unfortunately I never had the opportunity to play a Blackbird.
I have read your blog and I have read some reviews of the CA Cargo.
I got the impression that the Cargo has warm basses but it lacks in the treble department. You say in your blog that your company uses only premium quality carbon fiber (I didn't know that there are differente qualities ! That's interesting.).
It would be great if you could post in your blog, or here in this Forum, some audio clips of the Blackbird nylon string.
Hope you wil be able to do it. Thanks.

[PTL]

I had a couple of Rainsongs (past tense) including the WS9000. The WS9000 was designed to be nylon string. They did not just add nylon to the WS1000.

I've played a bunch off Cargos and I would not say ANY of them have recessed trebles.

PTL

[PTL]

jluttwak,

Just read your blog regarding Cargo.

I spoke with someone at your company a while ago when you first announced your guitars. Perhaps it was you?

Well, I'm not sure if the Cargo you heard is the Cargo I tried recently. I believe there has been acoustic improvements even in the short time.

The recording I heard of the Blackbird sounded a lot more 'hollow' or 'twangy' compared to the Cargo although that was a long while ago. Basically the Cargo sounds much fuller compared to my memory of the Blackbird. Not sure where I pulled that recording up - perhaps your site.

I'd love to hear some acoustic recording using microphones of the current Cargo versus your guitar. If yours sound as good, it would be amazing given its size.

That the Cargo is 1 lb heavier makes sense given its larger dimensions - not an indication of fiberglass at all right?

I'm not defending the Cargo but since you blog, and it's an easy call to CA Acoustics to confirm their material, I'm not sure if it's really professional to speculate negatively on another guitar manufacturer. By negatively I mean that they clearly claim it is carbon fiber, and then for you to speculate that they are using fiberglass sounds like accusing them of lying in their press. I'm not sure if that's your intent but it sounds like that.

PTL

[Shadowraptor]

I would love to try the Blackbird classical model, but I haven't seen any composites in my area (Winnipeg, MB).

[gerardo1000]

PTL,

Before Blackbird started producing its guitars, Rainsong was claiming to be the only manufacturer to build ALL carbon fiber guitars.
Therefore I guess that CA uses a mix of different materials, among them carbon fiber. In fact, they call themselves composite acoustics.
It would be interesting if someone from CA could post a reply and tell us if they use carbon fiber only. But I guess that, if they don't, their mix of material is
a company secret, and I am not sure that they would be willing to share it.

I know that pure carbon fiber is a very expensive material.
I think that this is the reason why John Luttwag in his blog underlines that CA guitars are not all carbon fiber:
to explain why the Blackbird guitar is more expensive than the cargo.

[PTL]

Ahh....I think I'll call CA and ask. Thanks for offering the possibility that they ARE composite.

Incidentally, they do damp certain frequencies to sound a bit more like wood rather than just let everything out.

PTL

[EllisS]

Hey guys, this is Ellis Seal of CA Guitars.

We think that players ears, eyes, and hands are plenty capable of making their own decisions about what guitars they want to play - this includes decision to play a Blackbird or a Cargo.

For inquiring minds, 100% of the structural reinforcement of our guitar is carbon fiber - there is a minute amount of fiberglass used for a particular purpose, but it represents less than 1% of the total weight of the instrument.

We manage to keep our costs down by innovative manufacturing techniques and manufacturing efficiency, and by giving players one heck of a deal on the Cargo.

I have been cautioned about jumping in to forums by a wise icon of the industry, so I don't jump in often, and won't in the future, however - I felt you guys needed to know the truth on this issue.

Ellis

[jluttwak]

Here is the requested sample. http://www.blackbirdguitars.com/Nylon1.mp3

[Doubleneck]

Ellis, Can you answer one question I have had about CA, why no 12 string? I love your guitars and it just seems you would have added this one by now.
Thanks
Steve