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  #1  
Old 08-30-2013, 02:16 PM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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Default What constitutes a professional level archtop?

I do not know if this question even makes sense in the context of archtop guitars. Perhaps it is based on a false equivalency, but here goes:

What is the minimum buy-in (in terms of cost and builders) for a professional quality archtop, something that you would not be uncomfortable pulling out at a Jazz club or taking to a good jazz program at music school?

To me, there is an answer for electric guitars and flattops. $2k will buy you a solid Martin D18 and although not as nice as a D18GE or a HD28, I certainly wouldn't feel inadequate if that were my only acoustic. In the same vein, $1500 will buy a nice solid-body electric.

I would not feel uncomfortable playing for pay in front of a paying audience with a $1600 Fender or a D18.

Most of the Jazz guitar performance majors I know at school play very expensive jazz boxes, and most were bought with student loan money.

Is there a "minimum standard" for a "professional level" instrument in the archtop world equivalent to a Fender Telecaster or a D18? I think maybe the difference is that factory level instruments are acceptable in flattops and electrics, but not so much in archtops and classicals.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:59 PM
kirkham13 kirkham13 is offline
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I have seen vintage archtops available from Ibanez and and some others that get good reviews... Artstar comes to mind... I have only read about them. I'm unschooled I admit.
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Old 08-30-2013, 04:02 PM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
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Even though in theory this can be answered, in my opinion it is a pointless endeavor to attempt it. There is almost no standard at all. You can find professional players making good jazz music on all kinds of guitars, archtop or not, electric or acoustic, and at nearly all points on the price spectrum other than perhaps the absolute bottom.

But I can already see where this is going by what you shared as your standard for other guitar types... $1500 for a "nice" solid body electric. Really? That's an awful lot. How about $500 for a partscaster Tele that kicks because it's set up perfectly and dialed in by a really sensitive player?

The audience does not care what instrument you play. They care what music you play, how it sounds, and how genuine you are as a musician. That is what moves people.

Please note that I own a bunch of valuable archtops, so I'm not coming at this with a chip on my shoulder. I own them because I love and value them. But I would play a gig with my Warmoth Strat any day as long as I have my musical stuff together. Or my Ovation Elite, or Carvin AC-375.
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:36 PM
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Real live professional musicians are pretty cash strapped.
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:41 PM
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Default Just listen to...

Joe Pass "Virtuoso" and answer your own question...
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:55 PM
RobertForman RobertForman is offline
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so many ways to interpret and answer this one. first off professional implies the player and not the guitar. there is no such thing as a professional guitar only a guitar that is suitable for a professional. now we can analyze the meaning of professional and that's a whole discussion in and unto itself, so let me get to the guitars.

to me a good archtop is a fully acoustic guitar that is made from solid woods and is carved on the top and the back. to get one worthy of a professional musician, typically we are talking either vintage or a luthier made new instrument.

on the other hand, there are many substandard archtops, archtops that me as a non-professional even will reject.

also, when you give the example of a Tele or D-18, these models have been consistent for decades, there are no archtops that I can think of that have been so consistent and consistently made. sure you could probably point to Gibson and say they are still building the L-5, but not too many, as they are few and far between.
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:09 PM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpguitar View Post
But I can already see where this is going by what you shared as your standard for other guitar types... $1500 for a "nice" solid body electric. Really? That's an awful lot. How about $500 for a partscaster Tele that kicks because it's set up perfectly and dialed in by a really sensitive player?
The funny thing is, this actually describes my electric to a Tee. It started life as an unassuming 1996 Fender Telecaster. I put aftermarket pickups on it and swapped out a thicker neck. My friends call it the "stelacaster" because at this point it sounds more like a strat than a tele.

But I guess what I really want to know is whether there is some minimum level where you can assume that you are getting a quality instrument? Of course every maker puts out instruments of variable quality. I often refer to my telecaster as a dud, at least it was before I tore it apart and rebuilt it. But if you buy a Fender Telecaster, or a Martin acoustic, or whatever, you have a reasonably good chance of getting a quality instrument.

Even if it isn't the ideal, many of us buy our instruments online because we live in isolated parts of the country, far from a venue where we can play dozens of instruments and pick the one we like the most. This is even harder to do when it comes to archtops. For most of us, it is just not feasible to try 10-15 different archtops. I have played most of my friends' instruments, but these are mostly $5k+ guitars owned by jazz majors.

I was sort of hoping that the collective wisdom of a forum could help set something of a baseline, but perhaps that is asking too much?

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Old 08-31-2013, 04:44 AM
RobertForman RobertForman is offline
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check out http://www.archtop.com/ac_inst.html / if you want a great vintage archtop, you can probably get one in the 3K range.
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:12 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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I like Peerless Guitars . They start from 1 k to 2,3(?)k . Very good guitars .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqrbN4LmOG4
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:50 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Lot of guys in Chicago who are in school play things like 335's...

Sylvain Luc, world class player, plays live often with a Godin Kingpin.

I do think there is such a thing as a professional quality instrument--it sounds great, it's well made, sturdy, stays in tune...I also think you can get a pro quality instrument for less scratch than perhaps ever in guitar history.
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:56 AM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by posternutbag View Post
I was sort of hoping that the collective wisdom of a forum could help set something of a baseline, but perhaps that is asking too much?
Are we talking about electric archtops? I assume so because of the jazz club and music school references.

One could argue that a Gibson ES-175 is the archetypal electric archtop guitar. So you can certainly find one for 2 or 3 grand (and up), but if you played a $600 Eastman AR-371 copy of the ES-175, you'd get plenty of approving looks. Just play good notes!

An ES-165 would also fit the bill and probably cost less. I'm not a fan of Epiphone electrics but others will mention those.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:23 AM
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iim7V7IM7 iim7V7IM7 is offline
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Default A couple thoughts

1) There are only professional players and not guitars
2) traveling, gigging musicians want sturdy instruments (laminate)
3) unfortunately, 3 people show up to hear someone play 3,000 chords and 3,000 people go to see someone play 3 chords (limited finances)
4) majority of jazz artists play amplified

Archtops made by Eastman, Heritage, Hofner, Gibson and Ibanez are all considered "professional" instruments. That being said, you will find many jazz artists play solid wood instruments made by small shops like Roger Sadowsky or by many well known individual luthiers (long list). Regarding the D-18 analogy, I would say this:

1) Archtop guitars are more expensive and time consuming to make than flat top
2) the Martin analogy would best be compared to a US made Archtop (vs. Asian made)
3) I think some models made by Heritage are fair comparisons
3) these instruments new start >$4,000 range

So about 2x a D-18 for a solid body domestic Archtop. An Asian archtop will cost far less
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:33 AM
slewis slewis is offline
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I think there's a whole lot to the "It's the guitarist, not the guitar" concept.
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Old 08-31-2013, 02:04 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
...I do think there is such a thing as a professional quality instrument - it sounds great, it's well made, sturdy, stays in tune...I also think you can get a pro quality instrument for less scratch than perhaps ever in guitar history.
...to which I'll add plays well and consistently in all ranges, and accurately conveys the signature sound of the individual player. As many of the above posters imply - and I wholeheartedly concur - we've entered the second Golden Age of archtop construction; a quick look at the market reveals an incredible variety of instruments available, at price points ranging from the low hundreds through the upper five-figure (and beyond) bracket, for the first time in nearly a half-century: the laminated Pac-Rim boxes (Ibanez, Washburn, Epiphone, Samick, etc.) hearken back to the the value-per-dollar beginner models from Harmony and Kay, the "three G's" - Gibson (who always maintained a nominal presence), Guild, and Gretsch - are back in the game, Heritage has arguably become the (New York) Epiphone of our day with its "more guitar for the money" (and Gibson-centric) lineup, Eastman and Loar have stepped into the role of Vega et al. with high-quality handmade instruments at mid-line prices, and tradition-minded individual luthiers such as Benedetto, Campellone, and Triggs have become the latter-day counterparts of D'Angelico and Stromberg (which instruments still survive, if in name only). Unlike twenty or thirty years ago, it's no longer necessary to decide between a new car or a new archtop - and thanks to contemporary manufacturing methods, the QC of even the lower-end models would have been unthinkable to those of us who learned on the mass-market/jobber-house instruments of the Eisenhower-Kennedy era. Bottom line: "professional quality" is where you find it, regardless of price; while there's much to be said in the absolute for the luthier-built/flagship factory models it is, above all, the tool that produces the music you hear and feel the way you hear/feel it - and if that instrument just happens to be a Godin 5th Avenue (I own two, so I'm partial) so be it...
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Old 08-31-2013, 02:42 PM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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Godin 5th Avenue is a good guitar for the money but as always there are other guitars that do certain things better than it so it all depends on what sound the player wants


IMO a 1000$ Godin kingpin isn't better on Jazz music than a Peerless journeyman
but maybe it is better on other genres.
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