Scales and modes

[Joe Beamish]

So… therefore I might leave off practicing the major blues scale and the minor blues scale, and pay more attention to arpeggios and chords, and learning solos off records.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Joe Beamish

So… therefore I might leave off practicing the major blues scale and the minor blues scale, and pay more attention to arpeggios and chords, and learning solos off records.

I wouldn't. Just balance that diet. There is a lot to be said with those pentatonics.

[Joe Beamish]

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[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Joe Beamish

So… therefore I might leave off practicing the major blues scale and the minor blues scale, and pay more attention to arpeggios and chords, and learning solos off records.

Well, learning from records is the best process anyway, for any kind of music. Listen and copy, make it sound like that.

There may be different technical things you need to practice at the same time, to make the aural learning easier. I.e., for jazz, it is more about chords and arpeggios, while the blues is more about one single scale throughout (mixing minor and major and bending between). You have to master your instrument either way, to maximise your skills.

And there is naturally more variety of melodic phrasing and rhythm in jazz, simply because the vocabulary is more extensive.

But either way - learning blues or learning jazz - doing it by ear from recordings is essential, whatever else you can pick up from other sources.

(That's assuming you are teaching yourself, but even the best one-on-one teacher can't give you everything you can get from recordings.)

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by pjbelsch

What is your recommended resource for learning scales, modes and playing through the circle of 5ths. I’ve been in pentatonic hell and am losing creativity because of my limited knowledge.

Hi, I've sent you a private message, please read it, and contact me - if you wish,
Best,

Ol' Andy

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Well, learning from records is the best process anyway, for any kind of music. Listen and copy, make it sound like that.

There may be different technical things you need to practice at the same time, to make the aural learning easier. I.e., for jazz, it is more about chords and arpeggios, while the blues is more about one single scale throughout (mixing minor and major and bending between). You have to master your instrument either way, to maximise your skills.

And there is naturally more variety of melodic phrasing and rhythm in jazz, simply because the vocabulary is more extensive.

But either way - learning blues or learning jazz - doing it by ear from recordings is essential, whatever else you can pick up from other sources.

(That's assuming you are teaching yourself, but even the best one-on-one teacher can't give you everything you can get from recordings.)

I definitely get the learning by ear thing, but whenever the solo goes outside the pentatonic routine, I also want to know what the player might be thinking in each phrase. I think a lot of it comes from chord knowledge….

[mr. beaumont]

Right, sometimes it's tough to analyze something when you have no idea where it's coming from...

The biggest thing to know is how each note relates to the chord it's being played over...so like, you can know playing G# B D F over E7 in an A blues comes from a diminished arpeggio...but it's even better to know you're playing 3rd, 5th, 7th and b9 over that chord...and then eventually to know that F note sounds great resolving to an E note when you get back to the A chord...

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Joe Beamish

I definitely get the learning by ear thing, but whenever the solo goes outside the pentatonic routine, I also want to know what the player might be thinking in each phrase. I think a lot of it comes from chord knowledge….

Almost certainly, it does. I.e., the first way blues players go beyond the pentatonic is to bend into the current chord tones - typically the m3 to the M3 of I (C>C# in key of A); or the b7 up to the M3 of the V chord (G>G# on the E); or the #4/b5 up to the P5 of the key, whatever the chord is!

There's a great B B King lesson on youtube where demonstrates this principle. He doesn't explaining what he is doing - because it's all intuitive and subconcsious for him - but that's what he is doing. This guy takes you through it:
https://youtu.be/7sZH5esu0lw?t=65

[mr. beaumont]

And a very interesting thing to try, to get that jump blues sound--instead of bending a full step from one note to another-- play the chromatic note in between.

Or...create a line that would be 4 quarter notes...then, approach each note from a half step below, and turn it into an 8th note line.

So many things can be done with chromatics...and they sound so hip!

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

And a very interesting thing to try, to get that jump blues sound--instead of bending a full step from one note to another-- play the chromatic note in between.

Or...create a line that would be 4 quarter notes...then, approach each note from a half step below, and turn it into an 8th note line.

So many things can be done with chromatics...and they sound so hip!

I’ve been using flat wounds for a long time, but the bending capacity will go up on the G string if I switch to rounds, which might be useful here.

But I am very attracted to chromatics, and it’s part of why I love Jerry Garcia’s soloing so much, and JJ Cale’s.

[LezPall]

Originally Posted by pjbelsch

What is your recommended resource for learning scales, modes and playing through the circle of 5ths. IÂ’ve been in pentatonic hell and am losing creativity because of my limited knowledge.

Scales and modes are hard because of how overwhelming they are. Millions of ways to use em, millions of ways to approach em. I have developed a specific system for this which gives instant fretboard knowledge, and for only $12.99 itÂ’s yours.

Kidding- but yes itÂ’s overwhelming at first. As someone whoÂ’s gone through that stage I can give you the single best approach to learning scales (modes-eh. IÂ’ll elaborate) that worked for me.

1. Major scale-all other scales are based on this so please hammer this in first. ThereÂ’s so much you can do with it, and once itÂ’s memorized all other scales are just a matter of tweaking a few intervals.

2. To learn any scale:
- Learn a fingering pattern that works for you and covers two octaves (starts on low E string ends on high E). I really like Jimmy BrunoÂ’s 5 shapes, it makes the most sense to me. Memorize these patterns one position at a time, first just memorizing the fingering, then playing slowly (SLOWER) while naming what interval youÂ’re on and eventually what note. Doing this will knock out learning the scale position, intervals, notes in the key and notes on the fretboard all at once-very efficient. Make sure you do this in every key, for example by following the circle of 5ths or 4ths. This should take months to a year to be internalized if done every day, so donÂ’t be disappointed if after 4 months youÂ’re still struggling.

- As soon as the positions are memorized, start mixing up the pattern in which you play the notes of each position. Play going up in thirds, go up a third and down a third, etc. do this only after you have memorized the positions down pat, but itÂ’s okay to start this if you can still only play slowly. Bonus practice if you still try to name intervals and notes while doing this, you really should.

-Once you can do this, start throwing on a chord progression in one key at first and try to solo by playing MelodieÂ’s using only notes in that scale. Stick to one position at first and then master it before moving on to another one. Learn songs that have space for a solo or improv and practice soloing in that key.


3. Once you can solo and sound good (I want to be realistic unlike a lot of people-while YOU will never be satisfied with your playing, as guitarists we never are, it will probably take about 2 years of daily work to go from first learning the major scale to producing decent solos at will) THEN learn other scales. For example, choose a song in a minor key or choose to use an altered scale to solo over a blues progression etc, forcing yourself to rinse and repeat the above process for each scale. However the good news is since theyÂ’re all 95% the same as the major scale, this will be much much quicker (like a few weeks to a few months max) before you can produce decent solos, and will feel much easier.

4. Modes are a little different because they arenÂ’t a positional thing like scales. By playing the major scale like I described you will have actually played every mode physically-modal practice will be a matter of hearing the differences and knowing when to use certain modes. ItÂ’s not necessary unless you want to play modal songs (like some famous jazz modal pieces that just have one chord the whole time) but trust me mastering the major scale will make modes feel like riding a bike vs climbing a mountain if you try to grasp modes right away.

Hope that helps.

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I come at things from a jazz perspective, so chord subs or superimpositions are something I think about a lot, but I think to play more authentically jump blues or rockabilly, it's more in the extensions and the chromatics.

In like Watson's case (and by the way, thanks for turning me on to him, I like his style a lot) your going to be hearing a blues with more than 3 chords too. So like if the basic form was...

| A7| D7| A7| A7|
| D7 | D7 | A7 | A7 |
| E7| D7 | A7 | E7|

you might hear him do something like...

|A7 | D7| A7| A7 |
|D7 | D#dim7 | A7 | F#7|
|Bm7 | E7 | A7 F#7 | Bm7 E7 |

And then of course, those chords don't have to be just 7ths...try a 9th on the one chord, now you're in T Bone Walker territory...make that last E7 an E7b9 and it's gonna get all jazz on ya.

And of course, the really crazy thing is you can super-impose some of this stuff on a 3 chord blues (if the feel is right) and you'll sound like you know every scale on the planet

Does it work if a soloist plays according to chord subs even while the rest of the band sticks to generic blues changes? I guess sometimes yes….

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Joe Beamish

Does it work if a soloist plays according to chord subs even while the rest of the band sticks to generic blues changes? I guess sometimes yes….

In jazz, yes! That's because subs have their own voice-leading logic. So the notes that don't fit the standard chords work as half-step approaches to the next chord.
E.g., the D# leads up to E in the A chord. The A# in F#7 leads to B in the E chord.
I.e., if you don't follow that tendency of the chromatics, that's when it could sound wrong. (The ear might still pick up the resolution to the chord tone in the backing, but better if you can do it yourself.)

[marciero]

In a basic sense, modes are just scales that fit different harmonic contexts. More generally, modes provide a framework for organizing and understanding the harmonic landscape-different harmonic contexts, the available options, and associated sounds. If you know some interesting chord that has a specific function in a tune, wouldn't it be nice to know the associated scale? Suppose you transcribe some solo. Wouldnt it be nice to have a framework for understanding how the notes fit together and produced the tonality that you are hearing? That way you can use these ideas in other situations with a similar harmonic context. Otherwise you are simply rote memorizing, and wont be able to generalize.

The good news is that the modes of any scale system all have use same whole step/half step sequence of notes. So the same patterns work for all the modes of a scale system. Knowing just the major and melodic minor modes will take you pretty far. I've found them all useful. I've only ever used two from the harmonic minor scale.

One resource that helped me when I was learning was a book called Arpeggios for Guitar by Don Letarski. Probably out of print. For every family of chord, there were a handful of voicings, the associated arpeggio, and the associated mode with fingerings associated with each voicing, and the role of each note indicated, all in guitar fretboard grid format. Very concise, and every bit useful. Ive also used The Guitar Mode Encyclopedia by Jody Fisher as a reference, not for learning per se. Can you harmonize the harmonic minor scale? (I cannot) That book will show you how.

Having said all this, if you are playing blues, folk, or even rock music this stuff has limited use.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by marciero

In a basic sense, modes are just scales that fit different harmonic contexts. More generally, modes provide a framework for organizing and understanding the harmonic landscape-different harmonic contexts, the available options, and associated sounds. If you know some interesting chord that has a specific function in a tune, wouldn't it be nice to know the associated scale?

Easy. The notes not included in the chord come from the chords either side, if not from the key of the tune, or the melody on that chord. If none of those give you any useful clues (extremely rare scenario!), then you can use any notes you like. (In that rare situation, it's true that modes will give you some preset scale forms to try, rather than just random stuff.)

Originally Posted by marciero

Suppose you transcribe some solo. Wouldnt it be nice to have a framework for understanding how the notes fit together and produced the tonality that you are hearing?

Easy again. The framework is the chord progression the solo is played over.
There may be notes in the solo that are not contained in the chords - even outside the key of the song - but they can be explained in either melodic terms (lines, voice-leading), in harmonic terms (chord extensions, suspensions or alterations) or usually both.
You're right that sometimes modes can offer shorthand terms for describing a set of notes relative to a chord, but that;s all they are: labels, not explanations of any kind. You don't need to know that in order to understand how the solo works.

Originally Posted by marciero

Can you harmonize the harmonic minor scale? (I cannot)

Of course you can! Same way you harmonize any scale. (Maybe I'm missing your point?)

Originally Posted by marciero

Having said all this, if you are playing blues, folk, or even rock music this stuff has limited use.

True enough!

Personally I have found modal knowledge useful, but for compositional purposes, and as an analytical framework alongside major-minor key theory. IOW, as an alternative harmonic system to classical key tonality. (Some music is in keys, some is in modes, some - perhaps most - is in a mixture, and some - not much - is in neither.) But I can't say I've found modes any use as a practical aid to improvisation. YMMV, obviously, and maybe you play different music from me, or think of modes in a different way.