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Stereo Width-Depth Plug in: How is it technically achieving this. Snake oil or not?
Here is a product that comes highly endorsed by several Grammy winners...https://www.leapwingaudio.com/produc...SAAEgIsNfD_BwE They Claim lots of benefits for Stereo Enhancement. My question: What they are actually doing to achieve this greater stereo width-depth enhancement? Are they playing with frequencies on each side to give the illusion of greater separation? Are they adding harmonics on each side? How is this greater Stereo created, & most importantly=at what cost to the original signal?I know nothing about any stereo width-depth plug ins...but I must admit they sound super intriguing. Is this snake oil? Or is this something worth investigating? Is this something that might give greater presence to an Acoustic Guitar recorded in stereo? |
#2
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There are lots of such plugins. Logic comes with a stereo widener.. I think if you're making some EDM tracks go crazy. Full band mix, maybe a little would be cool.. But for solo acoustic guitar I'd proceed with caution.. If you have something in mono, maybe something you just caught on your phone.. these things can sometimes elevate things a bit. For for a nicely recorded spaced pair recording of a solo acoustic instrument you're likely adding some artifacts and phase weirdness. Happy to be wrong though -maybe this one is somehow better..
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#3
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You could do some stage widening frequency dependent changes in volume and still be mono reversible.
Deepening soundstage with something like light reverb effect would require some deviation from pure mono reversibility but it couldbe kept pretty minimal. You can see the effect of some of the latter if you run the audio of this video through a DAW and look at the wave form.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above Last edited by rick-slo; 11-18-2021 at 03:04 PM. |
#4
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As part of my work I mix for broadcast. Most of my work is stereo or surround. Occasionally I receive music or sound effects in mono. If you've ever mixed for broadcast you'll know that mono music or effects under mono dialog compete far more than stereo versions do. Scoring mixers know this and create instrumental music mixes with a "hole in the center" for dialog just like popular mixers do for vocal music. So what do we do to make it possible to mix the mono music louder against the dialog without competition?
I use a stereo spread plug in for this. It offers a width control that spreads the music nicely. I've been using it for about a decade and trying to figure it out. It isn't simply a phase shift. I always check mono compatibility after using it and have found that the mono combined signal after I fold down the stereo mix sounds more like the original mono signal than the stereo width output. I've come to the conclusion that the stereo spread plug does a very fine comb filtering job with multiple teeth, placing the original signal with cut out frequencies on one side and the filtered frequencies on the other side. There is no stereo "steering" that you experience with grosser comb filtering where you end up with more high-end on one side. From what I can tell, when combined to mono the spread signal is returned to its complete form. Bob
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"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' " Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website) |
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Most of these plugins won't tell you the exact secret sauce they use, tho in some cases it's clear. One approach is to mix some of the left channel, phase inverted into the right and vice-versa. Another approach, (tho basically the same) is to convert to Mid-Side, and raise the level of the side component. This is just a mathematical process:
stereo to MS is, M = L+R, S=L-R (where + is a simple sum, and - is summing with phase inverted). So then you raise S, and convert back. L = M+S, R = M-S Lots of plugins play games with this type of thing, and even some hardware units. You can do other stuff beyond levels, like EQing the sides and mid differently. Another is to do the EQ trick Bob mentions. Logic's Stereo Spread plugin makes this pretty obvious: Screen Shot 2021-11-17 at 5.45.22 PM.jpg Hard to read, but that's frequency on the X axis, and the Y axis is cut and boost, like an EQ. So it basically applies a complementary "comb" EQ to each side. That effect can be quite dramatic, and I don't usually hear any impact if mixed to mono. That Leapwing plugin is claiming it will stereoize a mono recording, so it's likely doing the EQ trick. I tried that one once, I still see the (expired) demo on my plugin list. Don't have a clear memory, but apparently I didn't hear anything to make me buy it.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar Last edited by Doug Young; 11-17-2021 at 08:04 PM. |
#6
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Answer
I had sent this question to Leapwing Audio via email, and they generously answered.
" Thanks for asking. I am grateful that they answered this question with some deeper explanation. After working so hard to get the Recording Tone I desired. I really don't want to mess with the primary frequency balance in my recordings. I am thinking that Stereo Reverb, Echo, will give me the added spacial openness I am looking for. After all, reverb is adding time delays to the signal(much like the stereo widener, is also adding time but to the frequency balance). I am guessing at this point...but I have heard of tricks, like sending the reverb of one side to the other side? That sound interesting and may accomplish what I am looking for.As always, the real trick is to not add to much. I love reverb. But in the past tend to over do it. |
#7
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Quote:
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#8
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Yes, I would love to know of other examples of this. Sending the reverb of one side, to the other. Are there any famous recording of acoustic guitar that have done this? OR, how about using One Type Reverb for one side? And another for the other side?As an example; one might use Plate on the left mic with a longer tail, and a Hall with a shorter tail on the right mic for guitar? Or various combinations there of. Seems to me, I heard something of this technique way back in the 80's. I guess the big question is what does a Stereo Reverb unit actually do? Does it delay signals between the two sides?Here is an excerpt from an Sound on Sound Article I just found. "SOS contributor Mike Senior replies: One situation where you might reach for a mono reverb is where you want to avoid cluttering the mix. The thing about stereo reverb is that it does tend to wash right across the stereo image, whether you want it to or not, even if you're sending to it from a mono track. Furthermore, if you pan a track to the left-hand side, and also send from it to a reverb, sometimes that reverb will only accept a mono input, and will therefore spread its effect evenly from left to right, regardless of the dry track's image position. So if you're fighting for clarity in a mix, you might consider making some of your reverb effects mono and panning the effect returns to match the stereo positions of the dry tracks that feed them." "one solution can be to feed a mono reverb from the instrument, but pan the effect return to the opposite side of the image. One advantage of doing this, as opposed to just using a stereo reverb, is that it keeps the centre of the mix clear, which can help with the clarity of centrally panned lead instruments and vocals. " https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-a...-stereo-reverb I am going to have to read the full article a few times later on today in order to fully absorb. I am hoping that Some engineers, like Bob Womack can add to our discussion. It does seem like some of the article does point out that reverb is a stereo widener in itself.This subject matter of Stereo versus Mono reverbs & how to apply them....has lots of areas to expand upon. I would really like to understand just what is a Stereo reverb doing? How is it applying the reverb to each side? Why does Stereo Reverb wash across the mix? |
#9
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I remember a sound engineer saying that Roy Orbison's recordings nearly always had each instrument positioned with it's own reverb. He claimed this gave it remarkable clarity.
Nick |
#10
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I suspect there's no single answer, and people, including reverb designers, will do all kinds of things. My understanding of natural sounding reverbs is that they're trying to replicate what's going on in a real space. So if you have someone singing on stage, and you're in the back of the room, listening over your own stereo device (i.e. your ears!), you hear the singer bouncing off various walls, with reflections coming at you from all sides - so stereo! If you have a non-point sound, say an orchestra that fills the stage, you get the same effect, tho perhaps the instruments on the left side of the stage will bounce around differently than the ones on the right. Some reverbs try really hard to model this. Others fake it, I've run across one convolution pedal that just sort of adds chorus to a mono reverb sound to create simulated stereo.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
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I'm a little surprised that people are talking about this and the reverse technique (left items sent to right reverb and vice-versa) for solo guitar. Those techniques are mostly meant for ensemble mixing. The iso method Scheiner uses is meant to add clarity. The reverse reverb feed is designed to widen the sound field of an ensemble. Bob
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"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' " Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website) |
#12
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I think Victor (Knives&Guitar) is planning on more than just solo guitar. The Paul David video I mentioned was just solo guitar, tho.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#13
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So if I am understanding correctly The SOS article is offering two concepts for mono reverb effect One: straight forward on a mono instrument panned say 45 left, with a mono reverb on that track, so it's mono effect will also be @ 45 left Two : idea of using a mono reverb for a mono instrument track that is panned 45 Left, but the reverb is panned 45 Right,,, ( and so I am assuming the mono reverb would have to be on it's own mono Bus track panned 45 R, and being sent to, from the mono 45 Left instrument track) ..... And it all of this involves multiple different reverbs either Plugin with multiple instantiations, or multiple hardware reverbs ( a very expensive proposition ) Given I much prefer my Hardware reverb and I only have one (on it's own stereo Bus track) I tend to do some different things in order to try to maintain more clarity over a multi instrument sessions Things like different EQ for each instrument to "carve out different Frequency spaces" for different instruments... And either no reverb for many instruments,,,,,, or sometimes a delay instead of reverb for some instruments,,, and reserve my HW stereo reverb for my Vocal and maybe one or two instruments . Also I am a firm believer in pre delay (usually 50-60 ms ) for my HW reverb and EQ- the reverb to mostly mids to help with clarity (particularly if multiple instruments and vocal are being sent to it ) As far as EQ I put a Plugin multi band applied directly on each instrument track, to accomplish carving out different spaces for each instrument with mostly subtractive and sometimes a tiny bit of boost at different frequencies I also tend to put a compressor on every instrument track ( but that is a different discussion ) Now I am no professional engineer but I think carving out frequency spaces via EQ there by reducing low end and mid clutter,,, on multi instrument mixes, will often do as much to create a feeling of spaciousness by (creating clarity in both frequency and enhancing the positioning clarity) as the various reverb techniques being discussed . ???
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 11-19-2021 at 09:05 AM. |
#14
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KevWind....
I think they are talking about is a Stereo recorded guitar using Mono Reverbs on each side, and then panning the reverb only from each side, to the opposite side. IF I understand correctly?....it is certainly a bit confusing. Especially for a novice like myself who barely understands how to get around his DAW. Here is the Paul David Video(That Doug talked about) where he explains this. His explanation of this trick starts at 12:25https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww-cH29IGeM |
#15
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"You can adjust width, depth, and mono spread without phase or mono-compatibility problems; all thanks to a unique algorithm that produces clean results every time." Or i.e. whatever they do as they split a mono tract and add slightly different effects to each mono track and then make a R and L stereo tract of the results that what is now a stereo track can be converted back to a mono track and sound just like the mono track did before. That requires pretty specific boundaries on what their software is doing.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |