ES1 -> (ES2 or K&K Pure Mini)

[vbakh]

Thanks a lot everybody for detailed explanations. I think I'll go K&K dual-source route, but keep the old system intact:
- A bridge plate has enough space for placing K&K sensors without removing ES1 grounding assembly
- I'll get a new molex connector and solder wires from K&K sensors and microphone to it. K&K will be attached to the battery box via that connector. Wires from K&K should go to right contacts the on existing TRS 1/4" jack.
- Finally, affix old unused ES1 wires inside the guitar, install pure mini w. mic and connect it and the old grounding wire to the battery box.

That's it. No changes in the guitar exterior are needed. ES1 can be returned back to work or removed later. I believe it should work with ES2 as well. There will be plenty of unused old stuff inside the guitar, but I can live with that - at least for some time. Only extra part needed (besides K&K trinity) is that molex connector ($1-$2 maximum).

I am not sure yet whether it makes sense to utilize a battery box for powering microphone when there is no external power provided by preamp and what schematics to use.

It's going to be an interesting DIY project. I'd appreciate any feedback, constructive criticism and ideas. I'll post the results here.

[Mbroady]

Best of luck.....

Not to throw a wrench into your plans.........I am a K&K fan but there are are other SBDs now on the market that are getting great reviews.

You can hear a lot of them on Doug Young’s pick up page.
http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
You can also search the forum for his threads about these systems.

I found the Dazzo and Trance pick ups to sound quite good in the tests. I would say even a small bit better then the K&K, but throwing in the mic cancels out any difference. Plus the K&K System is already set up for the mini and mic combo.

I know, more to think about. Sorry to do that to ya.....

[varmonter]

There are lots of good pickups out there.
Personally i have never heard a es equipped
taylor that i liked. They all sound ok. Just
not great. I don't know why taylor doesn't
find something better I think it's the one pickup fits all kinda thing.
In that it sounds ok plugged into just about anything.You know but just ok.
I had a late 90s
514ce that had a barndoor Prefix system in it
that was far better sounding than es2.
KK pickups sound much better . Trouble is
you need outboard gear as in a good preamp
to get the impedance match and that bit of
eq required to eek out the best from them.
The small kk preamps (like the pure xlr) are of course made
for their pickups and are a good choice.
If you play a lot of open mics the kk plugged
in generally sounds like crap without said outboard
gear. So you need to shlep it (the outboard gear)with you all the time.
The es2 or es1 will always sound Just ok plugged
into random equipment. This is its big strongpoint.
Another option is a magnetic like the baggs m80
or the black angel or Sunrise. These will allow
you to plug into just about anything and still sound decent.
But all in all with the proper outboard gear the kk sounds
best.. I can tell you i owned a tonedexter for about two
months and just couldn't warm up to its sound. Just too processed
for my taste. But it gets a lot of love here.

[James May]

As saddle pickups go, I think the ES-2 is one of the best I've heard. It's not technically an UNDER saddle pickup, because the three piezo elements are pressed against the back side. The adjustment screws are clever and effective.

All that said, I'm a sound board transducer fan, wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more...

[btaylor]

I'll be following this and will be curious of the results....I have a 2008 614ce with the ES-1.2 and am seriously considering a pickup change, but I like that you are keeping the old system in tact. I also just installed a Pure Mini in my old Yairi and it sounds great! Very authentic sound IMO.

[vbakh]

I pulled the trigger yesterday and ordered K&K Trinity Solo, as well as a few connectors (similar to this one, with pins included). Not sure whether they are correct ones, will figure it out soon :-)

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by vbakh

I pulled the trigger yesterday and ordered K&K Trinity Solo, as well as a few connectors (similar to this one, with pins included). Not sure whether they are correct ones, will figure it out soon :-)

cool.. kk is really a great choice!!.. keep us posted .

[vbakh]

A quick update about adding K&K Trinity to my Taylor guitar without removing ES1 pickup & preamp.

A Molex connector on the back of the ES battery box has four pins: ground/sleeve, tip, ring, and +9v.
I made an adapter with 1/4" TRS plug on one (K&K) side, Molex 4-pin connector on another (Tayor) side, a tiny circuit with one capacitor and one resistor in between (aka electret microphone plug-in power circuit). All packed into a small plastic project box and 'velcroed' inside a guitar. It takes 9V from the ES battery, no external power is needed. With ~1ma current, a standard 9V battery will work with that circuit and microphone for ages … ( probably :-) )

K&K pickup sensors coexist with the old grounding plate and fit under the bridge just fine. There is plenty of room there for placing sensors right under the saddle, quite far from the grounding plate.

Everything works excellent and sounds quite good with my Zoom A3 and Kustom PW50. I'll test it in the field on weekends. I believe the same adapter / circuit will work with ES2 too.
It even works with TaylorSense and shows me how much battery capacity left even that I use it now with K&K microphone.

I'll describe it in more details in the next several days and post it here.

Regards,
Vlad

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by vbakh

…What would you do in such case?

Hi Vlad

I'm an old guy (70 yrs old) and deeply invested $$$-wise in my current pickup/preamps. So I'm not motivated to change.

If I were starting fresh, I'd have a decent mic and a Tone-Dexter for programing it. That way each guitar could have it's own 'profile' stored onboard, and I'd be good-to-go and it would be easy to add new guitars over the years.

As to the pickup, I'd probably leave the stock on installed for emergencies, and if it had none, add a K&K Pure Mini. It's signal is through-the-roof-hot (low signal to noise ratio) and the tone is easily shaped by people with decent boards.

[gfirob]

At the risk of stating the obvious, I think it is worth mentioning that the Tonedexter is not simply a preamp with frequency controls or some other familiar device. It is something that really has no comparable product in the marketplace of acoustic guitar pickups->preamps->amplification. For most (but not all) users, the Tonedexter is hands down the most effective way to render the true acoustic sound of your guitar through an amplification chain.

Every time I read these (often anguished) posts of someone seeking a pickup or a preamp combination that will finally achieve the amplified sound they hear with their ears from their (usually very expensive) guitar, I feel like there is not a broad understanding about how different the Tonedexter is and what it does.

I am an unashamed fanboy and owner of a Tondexter and three of my very different guitars are equipped with K&K mini’s for use with a Tonedexter (a rosewood Martin OM, a 30’s Kalamazoo KG 14 and a 30’s National). I have played out with these guitars in a variety of PA situations as a solo singer/player and I just can’t say enough good things about the K&K/ Tonedexter combination.

So I really think anyone who finds themselves in this dilemma, should do some research about the Tonedexter and listen to the demos on Youtube (particularly Doug Young’s) and learn just what this thing is and how it works.

They are not for everybody, or every situation, but they have worked for me in every venue and solved a very long-standing problem with acoustic guitar amplification.

End of rant…

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by gfirob

At the risk of stating the obvious, I think it is worth mentioning that the Tonedexter is not simply a preamp with frequency controls or some other familiar device.
They are not for everybody, or every situation, but they have worked for me in every venue and solved a very long-standing problem with acoustic guitar amplification.

I agree 100%. I had a K&K Pure Mini installed in my HD-28V, and I was really disappointed in the sound when plugged directly into a PA system, even with a preamp. The ToneDexter gives me a sound that really does my guitar justice. I just did a test recording with it and it sounds nearly identical to recording with a mic.

[vbakh]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

… if it had none, add a K&K Pure Mini...

Folks, thanks for good advises.

My Tailor guitar has a magnetic ES1 pickup that doesn't work with Tonedexter. That's why I decided to upgrade to K&K pure mini first. Then, I just couldn't resist to add a microphone for extra $50 and a funny DIY battery box project.
Being a computer engineer, I believe I understand how devices like Tonedexter work pretty well. Tonedexter probably comes next, but not earlier than I try that new dual source system. I play slow jazzy fingerstyle ballads in small rooms where mic+pickup combo + Zoom A3 might sound good enough for me. Will see :-)

Regards,
Vlad