ToneDexter - The Holy Grail! - Page 12

The Kid! · #**166** 06-05-2018, 12:10 AM

The session went well.

We used a Neumann KM 185, an AKG 414, and a Telefunken (can't remember the model number.

My favorite was the KM 185 in the arc position about 12 inches out pointed off axis towards the 12th fret.

We did 20 profiles and used my J45 and my Washburn Timber Ridge Custom. Gonna run through the profiles tomorrow to see what I liked best.

I used wave map 22 for the KM 185 / J45 and we used that for his tracks. He said he couldn't believe that this pedal exists. I can't wait to use it live on Thursday!

The Kid! · #**167** 06-05-2018, 12:13 AM

I do have one question though...

I'm a pretty percussive player and even use the internal mic on my Fishman Premium Blend to loop percussion into my Boomerang III. Will that be a problem live because of the wave map?

I'm going to do as much experimenting as possible at home through my PA speaker before I gig this.

Peter Z · #**168** 06-05-2018, 01:38 AM

Hi Kid,
do you use a small mixer? If yes you can plug an insert cable into your guitar. That means a 'stereo' TRS plug into the guitar and 2 'mono' TS plugs on the other end with seperate signals for the pickup and the internal mic.

Plug the pickup signal into the TD and the TD DI out into the mixer.
Then plug the internal mic signal into another mixer channel.
Now you have a great guitar sound from TD and a separated percussion sound that can also be processed independently in the mixer.

I never tried but using the internal mic with the TD could cause a quite unpleasent phasey sound.

The Kid! · #**169** 06-05-2018, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Z

Hi Kid,
do you use a small mixer? If yes you can plug an insert cable into your guitar. That means a 'stereo' TRS plug into the guitar and 2 'mono' TS plugs on the other end with seperate signals for the pickup and the internal mic.

Plug the pickup signal into the TD and the TD DI out into the mixer.
Then plug the internal mic signal into another mixer channel.
Now you have a great guitar sound from TD and a separated percussion sound that can also be processed independently in the mixer.

I never tried but using the internal mic with the TD could cause a quite unpleasent phasey sound.

Thank you for your quick response!

I actually use the internal mic to loop percussion into the Boomerang. I do have a phase switch on the pickup though. I’ll try it out later today and report back.

Another question:

In the studio, is it possible to run the mic through a compressor or other outboard gear before it goes into the Tonedexter?

Peter Z · #**170** 06-05-2018, 06:33 AM

Sure you can run the mic through outboard gear before the Tonedexter. But I think you will no be happy with the sound. I'm pretty sure you will confuse the algorithm quite badly.
I'd say if you mix the pickup (after the Tonedexter) with the mic (after outboard gear) you'll be fine.

Anyway, it's always better to try it out as you will do. And yes. please report back! :-)

gfirob · #**171** 06-05-2018, 08:35 AM

Very glad the session went well, Kid. It's great when people who have never used or never heard of the Tonedexter see (or hear) it perform for the first time. It is just outside of anything we have had experience with. But once you try it, the possibilities just open up. Let us know how the gig goes with the Tonedexter.

The Kid! · #**172** 06-05-2018, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Z

Sure you can run the mic through outboard gear before the Tonedexter. But I think you will no be happy with the sound. I'm pretty sure you will confuse the algorithm quite badly.
I'd say if you mix the pickup (after the Tonedexter) with the mic (after outboard gear) you'll be fine.

Anyway, it's always better to try it out as you will do. And yes. please report back! :-)

I can always hit bypass when I record the percussion by hitting the guitar.

The Kid! · #**173** 06-05-2018, 01:01 PM

Just a thought.

If you have a cheap guitar with a K&K could you profile a much better sounding guitar if it had the same pickup and make it sound like the much better Guitar?

Can you make a cheap beater sound like a Martin D41 or Gibson J45 if they all had the same pickup?

Or if someone comes to my open mic and plugs their guitar in, will it sound like my J45?

I imagine someone has tried this.

Gordon Currie · #**174** 06-05-2018, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Kid!

Just a thought.

If you have a cheap guitar with a K&K could you profile a much better sounding guitar if it had the same pickup and make it sound like the much better Guitar?

Can you make a cheap beater sound like a Martin D41 or Gibson J45 if they all had the same pickup?

Or if someone comes to my open mic and plugs their guitar in, will it sound like my J45?

I imagine someone has tried this.

I think BluesKing tried it and it *kind of* worked. But, if you think about it, this is the Aura approach, which did not work consistently or predictably. And many people who now use TD also used Aura and rejected it for limitations.

The other thing to think about is that the specific pickup and it's interaction with the guitar are factors that affect how well TD works. A K+K in one guitar is going to drive TD differently than the same model K+K in another guitar.

And when you have a wavemap created with a SBT like K+K, and someone comes in with a UST, then all bets are off.

Peter Z · #**175** 06-05-2018, 02:19 PM

Exactly what Gordon said.
My guitars are equipped with UST pickups and its much better to use their own wavemaps. Otherwise you get the Aura-effect, a hollow and phasey sound.
I used my Aura spectrum with the mix control up to 30%, never more.
Using the ToneDexter with the wrong wavemap forces me to mix in the pickup signal (with the character knob). But this is no improvement to the Aura.

I think with a little work on mic placement and an outboard EQ for the mic you can get great results out of a cheap guitar, better than using the wrong wavemap.

This is just my opinion/experience after only 3 days with the ToneDexter. I'm sure others know better.

gfirob · #**176** 06-05-2018, 03:18 PM

I sometimes mix up the wavemaps I have assigned from one guitar to another (Martin OM in slot 3, National Style O in slot 1) and the results are really bizarre, particularly given that the guitars are so fundamentally different. If I switch from the Martin to the National, for instance, without switching the slot number, the National sounds as if it has extreme high frequency distortion on the strings, like a physical problem in the metal.

I'm sure you could experiment endlessly with this kind of thing, but I think the chances of coming up with something better than the original really good guitar, with a good pickup, recorded with a good mike and good mike position are pretty slim. I don't think that is why God made Tonedexters, IMHO.

BluesKing777 · #**177** 06-05-2018, 04:23 PM

You wouldn't buy the TD for this reason, but once you have it for your main guitar stuff, why not?

Here is a song I did the other day - my slide/vocal version of a Robert Johnson tune - "Love In Vain".

Details: I have an old Gibson L-0 that I will probably never get a pickup installed in, so I put a Fishman Neo-D Humbucker in the soundhole. I don't like that sound at all and there is no level at all from the passive pickup. I then ran it to Tonedexter, wound up the gain, tweaked the tone controls, added 75% of a wavemap I made previously of my old L50 archtop....and I really like it. It still has 'electric guitar' sounds on the higher strings but I have a bit of old Gibson tone now....

I didn't have to do this, but I ran it to my Boss VE9 for the vocal effects:

https://soundcloud.com/bk7-3/lovevain-g-l-o-77c

BluesKing777.

gfirob · #**178** 06-05-2018, 05:46 PM

Well, I have to admit, Bluesking, is sounds pretty cool. I don't know if I could have identified the guitar, but it sounds pretty cool. I have an old square necked Gibson Mastertone flat top, which is basically a KG-11 with a mahogany top from the 30's that I use for slide, with a lipstick pickup in the should hole. Since it is an acoustic guitar, it would be interesting to see what a wavemap would sound like, given how good this sounds. You are right that this is not what the Tonedexter was made for, but why not give it a try? Thanks for posting.

BluesKing777 · #**179** 06-05-2018, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gfirob

Well, I have to admit, Bluesking, is sounds pretty cool. I don't know if I could have identified the guitar, but it sounds pretty cool. I have an old square necked Gibson Mastertone flat top, which is basically a KG-11 with a mahogany top from the 30's that I use for slide, with a lipstick pickup in the should hole. Since it is an acoustic guitar, it would be interesting to see what a wavemap would sound like, given how good this sounds. You are right that this is not what the Tonedexter was made for, but why not give it a try? Thanks for posting.

All fun!

Do you have wavemap of your Zoo KG-14?

Plug in the square neck, wind up the TD gain to suit, play it straight for a while, then add some KG-14 .......

(I got my Waterloo WL-14X back with a K&K Mini installed yesterday. Life was in the way until I made a wavemap at around 1AM!!! I may just play this beauty for a year or 2!)

BluesKing777.

Petty1818 · #**180** 06-05-2018, 08:15 PM

I am not sold yet on the Tonedexter. I need to experiment more but the first time I tried it live, I was having weird drop outs. The sound man mentioned my volume going up and down quite a bit. I am not going to blame that on the TD just yet but that and the fact that the wavemap was lost in the mix, did not sit well with me. The wavemap at home sounded great and I only had about 30% blended in. Once I bypassed it, my guitar was loud and clear.

On a side note, it's not excessive at all, but has anyone noticed background hiss with the TD? Again, it's not super loud or noticeable but when I am playing through my K10 speaker at home, there's hiss that I can hear that goes away as soon as I click mute on the TD, which cuts the signal. I think it's just a part of the design, it's just a bit noisier than most of my di's.