Three PU sources to one stereo jack?

[JonnyBGood]

Hi folks

I am trying to put together a versatile multiple pickup system for percussive fingerstyle, I'll be going into my Headway EDB1.

I definitely want an SBT, probably an internal mic for some air and maybe a mag for string attack/clarity though I am not fond of the sound. I'd rather drill just the one hole in the guitar if possible and keep things relatively simple.

I was thinking Fishman Rare Earth Blend + Schatten passive/ K&K pure mini, as that gives me an onboard blend between mag and mic sent to one channel of my Headway and the SBT on the other channel. Would that work? I am not sure whether you can have an active PU and a passive PU wired to the same jack.

Any other suggestions for other ways I could do this? I like the look of the Dimarzio black angel with its phase switch but I am not sure where that would leave me with options for a SBT and mic with some way of blending two signals onboard before output to the Headway.

Jon

[sdelsolray]

If you want to be able to separately adjust each of the three pickups prior to any blending, and use only one output jack on the guitar, you will need an output jack that has four terminals for wiring, one for each pickup and the last for a common ground. You will need a cable with 4 wires. The end of that cable will need to connect to a mixer with at least 3 channels. There are some other details which need to be addressed too, such as having unbalanced bias power with the proper voltage range available for the internal mic.

At least that's one way to do it.

A simpler way, although less versatile, is to blend the SBT and mag pickups in the guitar and run that blend to a stereo output jack with the other channel being used for the internal mic.

[JonnyBGood]

I'm not aiming to try and adjust all three sources separately and as mentioned above I am going into a two channel preamp. Really I am trying to see what's possible in terms of mixing two of the sources on board.

So back to my first question, would it be possible to connect a Fishman Rare Earth Blend to one channel of a stereo jack and a passive SBT (like a K&K or Schatten) to the other?

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I'm not aiming to try and adjust all three sources separately and as mentioned above I am going into a two channel preamp. Really I am trying to see what's possible in terms of mixing two of the sources on board.

So back to my first question, would it be possible to connect a Fishman Rare Earth Blend to one channel of a stereo jack and a passive SBT (like a K&K or Schatten) to the other?

The Fishman is two sources which are blended together in the unit. Its output signal is a mono signal. So yes, you can wire the Fishman to the tip and the K&K (or Schatten) to the ring of a stereo jack, or vice versa. Two signals would exit the guitar in a dual mono topology. The preamp you connect those signal to will blend them together.

A couple of caveats:

1) When you have an active pickup and a passive pickup in the guitar which share the same ground wire at the output jack, there may be some crosstalk in the signals.

2) The Headway does not have separate EQ for each channel, and the Fishman does not have separate EQ for the mag and mic. You will be limited in what you can do to optimize the tone of each source because any EQ adjustment will also effect one or both of the other sources.

[JonnyBGood]

Great, thanks sdelsolray. Yes I realise the limitations re. EQ on my Headway but a fancier preamp is out of the question for a while. Good to know that it would at least work.

[Andy Howell]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Great, thanks sdelsolray. Yes I realise the limitations re. EQ on my Headway but a fancier preamp is out of the question for a while. Good to know that it would at least work.

I’ve. Ever had any problems with limitations of EQ with my Headway. It is pretty easy to good a good sound out of it. Yes, you can get better but as you have said you have to spend a significant amount more.

In the real world of performance I have a lot of
People telling me they like my guitar sound which is predominantly down to the Headway.

Would three sources produce a better sound?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Andy Howell

I’ve. Ever had any problems with limitations of EQ with my Headway. It is pretty easy to good a good sound out of it. Yes, you can get better but as you have said you have to spend a significant amount more.
<snip>
Would three sources produce a better sound?

I think the Headway is excellent Andy, I've been gigging with it for years with different setups (as a Spanish guitar player).

Whether three sources would produce a 'better' sound is of course highly subjective and dependent on a whole range of factors - not least your playing style/repertoire, type of venue etc. Personally I wouldn't use the word 'better' but I like to have options. I've always liked SBTs yet they lack air and can be a little thick and woody, internal mics give you air but in noisy venues may cause feedback issues, mags give clarity and punch but lack warmth and so on...

I just thought the combo I mention above would be a nice flexible (and relatively simple) way of combining 3 sources, especially given the REB can go from 100% mic to 100% mag onboard, so I could have just internal mic and SBT in the mix, for example, if the venue allowed for it, or perhaps just mag and SBT if there was lots of background noise. As already pointed out, the limitation with the Headway is just the ability to EQ sources separately, which would be very useful.

BTW Mike Dawes has four sources in his guitars, and he has a clear rationale for that.

[Andy Howell]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I think the Headway is excellent Andy, I've been gigging with it for years with different setups (as a Spanish guitar player).

BTW Mike Dawes has four sources in his guitars, and he has a clear rationale for that.

He probably has a special one to deal with all of that tapping ;-)

When my current guitar was being commissioned I decided to try a Headway pickup on the basis that I'd been using preamp for ages and it seems to me that these guys understood acoustic sound.

The Headway pickup is a UST but they apparently use a coaxial cable rather than a film with crystals. This is similar to the cable used by Highlander but it is powered by only one 9V battery.

The sound is very good and piezo quack only really becomes an issue as the battery is running down. For most of the places I play this is more than good enough. On the rare times I get to mix an eternal condenser with the pickup the sound is astonishingly good. THere's a reason so many UK acoustic musicians use Headway. Their pickups are used a lot on mandolins, violins and so on but seem not so popular with acoustic guitars which amazes me.

I still find three sources a bit bemusing. The best sound I've listed to over the last couple of years seems to come from a Fishman Rare Earth mag/internal mic combo. If I was spending real money I'd be tempted to lookout the Mike Vanden Mimesis pickup which can be fitted either with an internal mic or with an adapter to take a DPA. Vanden designed the Rare Earth.

But for most stuff — playing to accompany vocals — the Headway is more than good enough! Well, for me it is :-)

[JonnyBGood]

I have another question related to this topic, a variation really.

So I currently have a passive K&K pure mini installed in my guitar, and have a Fishman Rare Earth blend (Magnetic + microphone with onboard blend) ready to fit. I have the latest version, which is wired to work in either stereo or mono just by using the appropriate cable at the jack.

Would it be possible to wire the K&K to one side of this jack (the mic side) so that I have Fishman mic + K+K on one channel and the magnetic pick up on the other?

(I'm just trying to avoid drilling another hole in the guitar for another jack socket if possible, although that's what most folk seem to do with 3 pick up sources).

[BluesKing777]

I went a different direction - I use an A&H 4 channel mixer to merge pickups because I didn't want to commit to permanent joins of leads...

Here is a track of my 1952 Gibson LG1 with some bottleneck....I have had an undersaddle pickup in it for years, possibly a Martin Thinline. I ran that to my Tonedexter and the file I made for it, put my Sunrise pickup in the soundhole and dangled the lead out to my Sunrise buffer box and then to my Fishman Pro EQ.


(A lot of people use a Sunrise with a K&K and the Sunrise stereo buffer box to plug both in).


Track mixed flat in my mixer, no reverb or such:


https://soundcloud.com/bk7-3/lg1sunrisetd777

I also have a Fishman REB that I could do the same thing with a K&K guitar for similar results with Tonedexter...


BluesKing777.

[wood nacho]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Hi folks

I am trying to put together a versatile multiple pickup system for percussive fingerstyle, I'll be going into my Headway EDB1.

I definitely want an SBT, probably an internal mic for some air and maybe a mag for string attack/clarity though I am not fond of the sound. I'd rather drill just the one hole in the guitar if possible and keep things relatively simple.

I was thinking Fishman Rare Earth Blend + Schatten passive/ K&K pure mini, as that gives me an onboard blend between mag and mic sent to one channel of my Headway and the SBT on the other channel. Would that work? I am not sure whether you can have an active PU and a passive PU wired to the same jack.

Any other suggestions for other ways I could do this? I like the look of the Dimarzio black angel with its phase switch but I am not sure where that would leave me with options for a SBT and mic with some way of blending two signals onboard before output to the Headway.

Jon

Petteri Sariola has a clever way of doing this. He uses a 5pin DIN plug which gives him lots of options for wiring. Ofcourse, with this method you will also need to make a special cable but if you are handy with a soldering iron it is not too difficult.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by wood nacho

Petteri Sariola has a clever way of doing this. He uses a 5pin DIN plug which gives him lots of options for wiring. Ofcourse, with this method you will also need to make a special cable but if you are handy with a soldering iron it is not too difficult.

Ah, interesting, thanks. So he has a 5 pin din plug on his guitar in place of a jack socket and wires his pick up sources to this? I'd be interested to see his route from there through his pedal board.

[wood nacho]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Ah, interesting, thanks. So he has a 5 pin din plug on his guitar in place of a jack socket and wires his pick up sources to this? I'd be interested to see his route from there through his pedal board.

Petteri's rig has changed a bit since this video but it will give you a good idea of what is going on with his setup.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by wood nacho

Petteri's rig has changed a bit since this video but it will give you a good idea of what is going on with his setup.

Thanks, that was fun. Man, what a board, and I thought Mike Dawes had a complex rig, this is off the scale! Petteri is such a funky player, great voice too.