I bought a car with my fingerprint (sort of).

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann

It's really not apples to apples, though is it?

I think most people are not anti-EV. But just for the sake of argument, how do you defend these charts below, if you don't have a charger at home?
I mean, who has that kind of time to spend charging a car at a charging station, compared to how long it takes to fill up with gas? And that's if, you're first in line. How do you handle being second in line, when the first person still has an hour to go to charge? What if you have kids in the car or pets? Or live in a really cold climate when it's time to charge? Do all stations offer high speed 1000VDC charging? I find that hard to believe.
Even a Tesla and a high powered hookup can take up to an hour to just go max 240 miles under optimal conditions, according to the chart.
No wonder the rental car companies threw in the towel recently. Who wants to deal with that when you're on vacation?
Again, not being argumentative. You've made it clear that you're an enthusiastic supporter and you make good points. But this government data has me thinking the technology and infrastructure still have a long way to go before we're able to seamlessly transition away from conventional cars.
Having a charger at home seems like an absolute must have. But not everyone has one, or can easily make room for one. And it's not cheap.
These are important things to consider if someone is to turn in the gas powered car for an electric solution. Not to mention where to get them fixed if they break down, if not at the dealer who might not be close. It makes me think that some of this helps to explain the market reluctance and non-moving dealer inventories we have witnessed recently. No?

This is another post where I think you are not enough experienced or understanding how most of them are used.

You get your EVs fixed just like you get non-EVs fixed. You do this at mostly the same physical locations. The Tesla facility near me used to sell Jaguar and Land Rover. The GM, Ford, VW, and Hyundai/Kia dealers aren't any different. Before the local Tesla facility and for the Rivian where I work they send flatbed wreckers often with your loaner on it.

As said the 1.5+ wait is another part of why I did the reservation.

Millions of plug in vehicles have been sold in the US now. If they were honestly so problematic or impossible I'm really sure news of them would be less about emotive stuff and outliers.

[KevinH]

It really depends on the situation. Charging at home is, without a doubt, easiest and cheapest (for me, currently the equivalent of $0.70/gal of gas).

But I have a friend that owns a Tesla and lives in downtown Seattle, with no way to install a charger. He goes to a DC fast charger once a week. The charging rate on EVs goes down once you're above 80% of full. So if time is a factor the most efficient way is to charge to 80%, which will typically get you 180-200mi of range. If you don't drive more than about 25-30 miles/day, that'll be plenty. That'll work for some, but not everyone.

I have another friend with a Tesla that just uses a regular 20A outlet to charge his car. It charges at a rate of around 6 miles/hr IIRC. He routinely plugs it in overnight and so can get around 60-70 miles of charge, which is enough for a lot of people, but not all.

Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann

...But just for the sake of argument, how do you defend these charts below, if you don't have a charger at home?
I mean, who has that kind of time to spend charging a car at a charging station, compared to how long it takes to fill up with gas? And that's if, you're first in line. How do you handle being second in line, when the first person still has an hour to go to charge? What if you have kids in the car or pets? Or live in a really cold climate when it's time to charge? Do all stations offer high speed 1000VDC charging? I find that hard to believe.
Even a Tesla and a high powered hookup can take up to an hour to just go max 240 miles under optimal conditions, according to the chart....

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann

It's really not apples to apples, though is it?

I think most people are not anti-EV. But just for the sake of argument, how do you defend these charts below, if you don't have a charger at home?
I mean, who has that kind of time to spend charging a car at a charging station, compared to how long it takes to fill up with gas? And that's if, you're first in line. How do you handle being second in line, when the first person still has an hour to go to charge? What if you have kids in the car or pets? Or live in a really cold climate when it's time to charge? Do all stations offer high speed 1000VDC charging? I find that hard to believe.
Even a Tesla and a high powered hookup can take up to an hour to just go max 240 miles under optimal conditions, according to the chart.
No wonder the rental car companies threw in the towel recently. Who wants to deal with that when you're on vacation?
Again, not being argumentative. You've made it clear that you're an enthusiastic supporter and you make good points. But this government data has me thinking the technology and infrastructure still have a long way to go before we're able to seamlessly transition away from conventional cars.
Having a charger at home seems like an absolute must have. But not everyone has one, or can easily make room for one. And it's not cheap.
These are important things to consider if someone is to turn in the gas powered car for an electric solution. Not to mention where to get them fixed if they break down, if not at the dealer who might not be close. It makes me think that some of this helps to explain the market reluctance and non-moving dealer inventories we have witnessed recently. No?

The charts are interesting, but are averages for sure. As I stated in my post above, we get exactly 7 miles per hour of charge on 20 amp 110 charging in our Kona.

[TheGITM]

I'm waiting on next gen battery tech...

Battery technology has lagged pretty much every other area of advancement, and the current lithium ion battery production is not exactly environmentally-friendly nor inexpensive. There are also potential quality issues, which we've all seen reported over the past several years. If even slightly out of spec, they can (and have) burst into flames.

I've read that you can expect about 100k miles on the current batteries before they need to be replaced... and they are pricey.

I think we will need a significant improvement in battery tech before many will be comfortable going full EV.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann

It's really not apples to apples, though is it?

I think most people are not anti-EV. But just for the sake of argument, how do you defend these charts below, if you don't have a charger at home?
I mean, who has that kind of time to spend charging a car at a charging station, compared to how long it takes to fill up with gas? And that's if, you're first in line. How do you handle being second in line, when the first person still has an hour to go to charge? What if you have kids in the car or pets? Or live in a really cold climate when it's time to charge? Do all stations offer high speed 1000VDC charging? I find that hard to believe.
Even a Tesla and a high powered hookup can take up to an hour to just go max 240 miles under optimal conditions, according to the chart.
No wonder the rental car companies threw in the towel recently. Who wants to deal with that when you're on vacation?
Again, not being argumentative. You've made it clear that you're an enthusiastic supporter and you make good points. But this government data has me thinking the technology and infrastructure still have a long way to go before we're able to seamlessly transition away from conventional cars.
Having a charger at home seems like an absolute must have. But not everyone has one, or can easily make room for one. And it's not cheap.
These are important things to consider if someone is to turn in the gas powered car for an electric solution. Not to mention where to get them fixed if they break down, if not at the dealer who might not be close. It makes me think that some of this helps to explain the market reluctance and non-moving dealer inventories we have witnessed recently. No?

Not trying to pile on here but lets pull back out a bit view wise.

First:: no one is saying there is or even should be, a total complete transition (seamless or other wise) In fact I would venture to say there is likely not going to be a complete transition even in the next 20-30 years , because it is not currently practical and perhaps not necessary for everyone to transition

BUT that does not mean for a huge large % of both personal commute and local business fleet use that the current infrastructure is not already in place, already practical, and ultimately cost effective.
For example
61 % of American households own their own homes, the vast majority of the homes have at least 1 or more 220/240 volt circuits let alone multiple 120 v circuits-- that can be tapped for home charging
Of course there are logistics and installation costs but those will be defrayed over time by significant decrease in operating costs per mile and the decrease in overall maintenance costs

Even if we as a nation only switch a reasonable portion of the daily commute vehicles to EV's , that will represent a significant decrease in combustion emissions

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by imwjl

This is another post where I think you are not enough experienced or understanding how most of them are used.

You get your EVs fixed just like you get non-EVs fixed. You do this at mostly the same physical locations. The Tesla facility near me used to sell Jaguar and Land Rover. The GM, Ford, VW, and Hyundai/Kia dealers aren't any different. Before the local Tesla facility and for the Rivian where I work they send flatbed wreckers often with your loaner on it.

As said the 1.5+ wait is another part of why I did the reservation.

Millions of plug in vehicles have been sold in the US now. If they were honestly so problematic or impossible I'm really sure news of them would be less about emotive stuff and outliers.

Re: Repair. Those are all dealers though. I was referring more to the local repair shops who don't service them, like my long time mechanic. I'm just saying it's an additional factor to consider in the decision process. Dealers have never been my favorite place to get a car serviced.
As far as being problematic: the market is not adopting them as quickly as anticipated, in spite of all the incentives. Just trying to understand the reasons behind that trend, because it's a flag. Might not be a bright red one, but it's worth noting when making such a large and transformational purchase.
And if you go on vacation and/or travel on business, will you rent an EV and solve out the associated charging issues of an unfamiliar location, or will you just get the gas car and foggetaboutit? (Maybe that's why Hertz "pulled the plug" on them.)
Again, I don't want to sound like I'm knocking them. I would love to own one. But they are not yet equally suitable for everyone. It's very much worthwhile for people to carefully consider all of this before committing. The technology, and infrastructure, are not yet in sync with the hype.

Originally Posted by KevinH

It really depends on the situation. Charging at home is, without a doubt, easiest and cheapest (for me, currently the equivalent of $0.70/gal of gas).

But I have a friend that owns a Tesla and lives in downtown Seattle, with no way to install a charger. He goes to a DC fast charger once a week. The charging rate on EVs goes down once you're above 80% of full. So if time is a factor the most efficient way is to charge to 80%, which will typically get you 180-200mi of range. If you don't drive more than about 25-30 miles/day, that'll be plenty. That'll work for some, but not everyone.

I have another friend with a Tesla that just uses a regular 20A outlet to charge his car. It charges at a rate of around 6 miles/hr IIRC. He routinely plugs it in overnight and so can get around 60-70 miles of charge, which is enough for a lot of people, but not all.

Yes, I agree with that assessment, i.e. works great for some but is not practical to others. It's a decision that requires closer scrutiny ahead of time. When evaluating a conventional car, no one thinks about where they'll have to fill up. And certainly not how long it would take, or what kind of predicament this could put you in. It doesn't have to be bad though. As we saw in the Rivian ad, high power charging stations are now in the middle of the woods.
As you said, it depends on the individual. But there's definitely less commonality in the decision making process when it comes to EVs. Not saying it's bad. It just needs to be factored in ahead of time.

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

The charts are interesting, but are averages for sure. As I stated in my post above, we get exactly 7 miles per hour of charge on 20 amp 110 charging in our Kona.

That's another good point too. The residential electrical capabilities in the US, i.e. 110...240VAC, are much different than what you can find in a commercial or industrial environment. No homes will be able to charge quickly if doing so involves a 1000VDC super charger assembly, or even a 400VDC one.
Charging at home means plugging it in for longer periods and less miles per hour. Granted, that could be totally OK for some, but not everyone.
It would be fine for me, but setting up a charging station wouldn't be cheap. I would need to factor that into the already expensive price of the vehicle. I haven't gotten by the "why bother" part of the process yet.

[LAPlayer]

I don't own one, but everyone will. Most of the negative information I see/hear/read is anecdotal and not from EV owners. People spreading/sharing misinformation which fuels the internet and peoples' opinions. What I do know is many people who use their EVs for local, and national travel, and love them without complaint. I trust the very intelligent people whose first-hand information passed on to me much more than anything I would read on the internet. Are there concerns like charging availability (they're popping up everywhere) and cold, mountains..... yep. But that's what scientists and engineers are for.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Not trying to pile on here but lets pull back out a bit view wise.

First:: no one is saying there is or even should be, a total complete transition (seamless or other wise)

Are you sure about that...?
OK, I'll take your word for it.

Originally Posted by KevWind

61 % of American households own their own homes, the vast majority of the homes have at least 1 or more 220/240 volt circuits let alone multiple 120 v circuits-- that can be tapped for home charging
Of course there are logistics and installation costs but those will be defrayed over time by significant decrease in operating costs per mile and the decrease in overall maintenance costs

All that additional electricity. Where will it come from? and how will it be distributed?
I agree that it can be done. But all of it will need excellent planning and co-ordination. I hope we're up to the task.

Originally Posted by KevWind

Even if we as a nation only switch a reasonable portion of the daily commute vehicles to EV's , that will represent a significant decrease in combustion emissions

I agree, but at what cost to the planet's other resources. I'm not that impressed by the air quality management prowess of the countries outside the US tasked with making all those critical EV components either.
I'll leave it at that for fear of getting "off topic" but in closing, I'm not against the technology. Quite the opposite. I don't like gas fumes either. But the overall environmental issue is a lot more complex.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann

Are you sure about that...?
OK, I'll take your word for it.

All that additional electricity. Where will it come from? and how will it be distributed?
I agree that it can be done. But all of it will need excellent planning and co-ordination. I hope we're up to the task.

I agree, but at what cost to the planet's other resources. I'm not that impressed by the air quality management prowess of the countries outside the US tasked with making all those critical EV components either.
I'll leave it at that for fear of getting "off topic" but in closing, I'm not against the technology. Quite the opposite. I don't like gas fumes either. But the overall environmental issue is a lot more complex.

This is a tough space to make sure we have full understanding and not violate the rules so my suggestion is go to some current and known-good news sources.

It might not be all states but huge amounts of grid improvements are going on and scheduled. No one but ignorant fools say or think EVs are without negative externalities but many good sources show fewer of them. Now the demand and value is even moving mining to US and Canadian places where we have strong standards for worker and other protections.

It could also be that you're out of date with some significant international news. The recent of many 5 year plans in China have made huge improvements with regard to the environment. That is in part why they are ahead of some other countries and auto makers in important areas.

In the US the states have different utilities regulation and management. Some are much better than others. You might want to look for the NERC reliability assessments. Even being a basic utilities investor or having those stocks in a nest egg often reveals what the utilities are planning.

[TomB'sox]

Personally, the EV works for us because we have an ICE SUV for all long trips. The EV is perfect for my wife who drives 50-60 miles every other day so we can slow charge at home. We also have solar on our house so we charge with nothing from the grid at least on sunny days which are the norm here in TX.

This is why it works for us. Everyone's situation is different.

What do I think is a better answer, plug in hybrid technology. This solves many of the problems and works for everyone. If your commute is short, ie about 35 miles, you can be pure electric, longer your gas kicks in, in other modes you use electric up to 30 mph and then cruise on gas when it is being much more efficient and batteries less so. The result is much less pollution both on the battery production as the battery pack is so much smaller and on the ICE as it only runs when it is more efficient and producing less pollutants and less gas overall.

Hybrid tech is really coming along big time.

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

What do I think is a better answer, plug in hybrid technology. This solves many of the problems and works for everyone. If your commute is short, ie about 35 miles, you can be pure electric, longer your gas kicks in, in other modes you use electric up to 30 mph and then cruise on gas when it is being much more efficient and batteries less so. The result is much less pollution both on the battery production as the battery pack is so much smaller and on the ICE as it only runs when it is more efficient and producing less pollutants and less gas overall.

Hybrid tech is really coming along big time.

I'm not a big fan of hybrids because I don't want the complexity but I get what you're saying. Also, weirdly hybrid cars catch fire the most per 100,000 cars, per the insurance industry. Hybrid cars had 3474.5 fires per 100,000 sale; petrol cars had 1,529.9 fires per 100,000 sales and EVs had just 25.1 fires per 100,000 sales.

We would love to have an EV but when we bought our current two vehicles, there were no EV minivans nor small EV trucks on the market. They should be available by the time these need replaced. We do have an electric lawnmower and an electric farm utility vehicle. Ok, the farm utility vehicle is an electric golf cart with mud tires but still.....

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann

Are you sure about that...?
OK, I'll take your word for it.

Well in terms of what has been posted on AGF in any thread about EV yes I am sure ..

All that additional electricity. Where will it come from? and how will it be distributed?
I agree that it can be done. But all of it will need excellent planning and co-ordination. I hope we're up to the task.

A reasonable question, of course there is always continued solar and wind development as well as possibly small format modern nuclear. Which is why I said-- likely no significant change for 25-30 years But of course another reasonable and perhaps more important

I agree, but at what cost to the planet's other resources. I'm not that impressed by the air quality management prowess of the countries outside the US tasked with making all those critical EV components either.
I'll leave it at that for fear of getting "off topic" but in closing, I'm not against the technology. Quite the opposite. I don't like gas fumes either. But the overall environmental issue is a lot more complex.

Of course environmental impacts of any energy source is complex, But another important question what is the current cost to earths resources doing it the way we have and are still doing it ????
Which why we desperately need to make sure that at the very least, we keep putting in place the funding to accomplish the research.