ASCAP Fees for Winery

[RLetson]

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

Nice! So I have to pay some goon to play my own original material in public?

Not quite. This is what I get from reading the contracts and other paperwork: If you are a performer/composer signed up with a PRO, at any given gig you have the option of self-licensing--that is, giving the venue permission to present your work. This would seem to be rooted in copyright law, which gives you the right to control public performance of your work--assuming, I guess, that you have retained publisher status.

And in any case, you do not pay the PRO licensing fee--the venue does. For composers, ASCAP has a one-time signup fee of $50, but BMI and SESAC cost nothing to join.

I am told by artists that there are venues with big "No [insert PRO name here] songs allowed" signs right on the stage. The real-world problem with trying to be an originals- or public-domain-only venue is that PRO agents either insist that such an entity is impossible and/or target them for special attention of the sort that Steve DeRosa has described.

Here's a story I was reluctant to tell here: Our folk society was started by a restaurant owner who loves folk music. He paid ASCAP and BMI, but eventually SESAC reps showed up, and since their big-dog client at the time was Dylan, they figured a folky venue was a natural. He asked, what if we don't present any Dylan material? And, come to that, exactly what other artists do you represent? The agents would not give him a list and apparently got pretty bolshy. So for years we had language in our contracts specifically excluding songs by Dylan and Neil Diamond (another SESAC client). We also had a form to be signed by performers acknowledging the no-Dylan rule. (Almost nobody finishes a folk concert with a rousing sing-along of "Sweet Caroline," so we didn't mention Diamond.) Eventually we encountered enough SESAC artists--and, I suspect, a reasonable agent--and worked out an agreement with that PRO, so now we have been fully covered for several years.

[Jeff Scott]

I am SO GLAD that I am out of the gigging roulette, anymore.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by RLetson

...Almost nobody finishes a folk concert with a rousing sing-along of "Sweet Caroline," so we didn't mention Diamond...

I've been known to finish a night with "Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show," where the audience sings the "hallelujah" background during the sermon...

[leew3]

I don't know whether it's comforting or adds to the sad news, but this is not new. An acoustic duo I played in 40 years ago had a standing gig at a local bar that went away as they couldn't afford to play the ASCAP/BMI fee demanded of them. We even offered to play a weekend for free to help out but that was the end of live music at this venue. I suspect this will be the case for many over time as well.

[jim1960]

If a venue wants to include live music as part of how it sells itself to the public, the people who own the intellectual property rights to that music deserve to be paid because they're adding value to the experience. If the live music didn't add value and increase the venue's revenue stream, they wouldn't bother with it.

All the whining and moaning about not have a place to play means nothing if you don't have a viable alternative system to collect those royalties and so far I haven't seen anyone propose a feasible system that would work better. The complaining sounds like what one would hear from entitled "influencers" who get miffed when they don't get what they want for free. I have no sympathy for the venues who get legally entangled after breaking the rules. They took what they had no right to take. It's no different, in my eyes, than stealing steaks off the back of the delivery truck.

[Br1ck]

My open mic venue pays roughly $1500 a year to BMI and ASCAP. We used to, and hopefully will again, play on a Thursday night, in the back room banquet area of an English pub. To support the venue, I and many others have dinner and a couple of beers. My tab averages $30 and I attend roughly 45 weeks a year. My yearly expenditure each year is $1350. I alone practically pay the fees.

I assure you, I would not drive 30 miles to this establishment otherwise. So there's a minimum of five to ten folks like me, but I see most buying a drink or two. Some nights in the dead of winter, we are the majority of the business.It makes business sense in every way. Been going for 18 years. The big club killer is the drunk driving laws we've had for twenty years. That alone killed half the revenue bars used to make. Want to go back to the good old days?

[Don Lampson]

Originally Posted by leew3

I don't know whether it's comforting or adds to the sad news, but this is not new. An acoustic duo I played in 40 years ago had a standing gig at a local bar that went away as they couldn't afford to play the ASCAP/BMI fee demanded of them. We even offered to play a weekend for free to help out but that was the end of live music at this venue. I suspect this will be the case for many over time as well.

I suspect there were numerous reasons for that bar to close, besides the ASCAP/BMI fees demanded of them? Bars & restaurants, are tough businesses to operate... More fail than succeed...

I see lots of unwarranted sympathy for those poor venue owners, shaken down by PRO goons, forcing them to kick down 200 bucks per month. Any business crippled by such a small fee is trouble to start with....

Don

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by Don Lampson

I suspect there were numerous reasons for that bar to close, besides the ASCAP/BMI fees demanded of them? Bars & restaurants, are tough businesses to operate... More fail than succeed...

I see lots of unwarranted sympathy for those poor venue owners, shaken down by PRO goons, forcing them to kick down 200 bucks per month. Any business crippled by such a small fee is trouble to start with....

Don

I've experienced this myself (we paid) and can assure you they were NOT nice, nothing warm and cuddly about them. A very nasty experience. It's why I won't join one.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I've experienced this myself (we paid) and can assure you they were NOT nice, nothing warm and cuddly about them. A very nasty experience. It's why I won't join one.

You're gonna need a bigger boat...

[frankmcr]

I'm just wondering how successful a "warm & cuddly" PRO guy would be, getting the average venue owner to pay up?

sincerely,

Frank McCynical

[MikeBmusic]

Originally Posted by Alder Statesman

I manage a property that includes a club that seats 140 inside and 200 outdoors. Our annual licensing fees for BMI, ASCAP and SESAC came to $1700 during pre-pandemic. It’s part of the cost of doing business and our members EXPECT live music.

I know the owners of a struggling pub who refuse to pay the licensing fees and I think their refusal is contributing to their problems. Their fees would probably be less than $30 a week based on their size. All they need to do is to sell an extra four or five drinks to break even. Would a good jazz trio bring in a just a couple more bodies to generate those sales?

FWIIW. The licensing agencies reduced our fees to about $900 in 2020 and 2021, but I do expect them to go back tp $1700 when things return to normal.

Originally Posted by jim1960

If a venue wants to include live music as part of how it sells itself to the public, the people who own the intellectual property rights to that music deserve to be paid because they're adding value to the experience. If the live music didn't add value and increase the venue's revenue stream, they wouldn't bother with it.

All the whining and moaning about not have a place to play means nothing if you don't have a viable alternative system to collect those royalties and so far I haven't seen anyone propose a feasible system that would work better. The complaining sounds like what one would hear from entitled "influencers" who get miffed when they don't get what they want for free. I have no sympathy for the venues who get legally entangled after breaking the rules. They took what they had no right to take. It's no different, in my eyes, than stealing steaks off the back of the delivery truck.

Originally Posted by Br1ck

My open mic venue pays roughly $1500 a year to BMI and ASCAP. We used to, and hopefully will again, play on a Thursday night, in the back room banquet area of an English pub. To support the venue, I and many others have dinner and a couple of beers. My tab averages $30 and I attend roughly 45 weeks a year. My yearly expenditure each year is $1350. I alone practically pay the fees.

I assure you, I would not drive 30 miles to this establishment otherwise. So there's a minimum of five to ten folks like me, but I see most buying a drink or two. Some nights in the dead of winter, we are the majority of the business.It makes business sense in every way. Been going for 18 years. The big club killer is the drunk driving laws we've had for twenty years. That alone killed half the revenue bars used to make. Want to go back to the good old days?

Sorry for repeating the above posts, but they all drive forth the same ideas as my opinion.
The venue where I host my open mic (every other week), has a DJ on Tuesdays, live music on Fridays and Saturdays, occasionally on a Sunday. They seat less than 100 people, about 100 outside in the warm weather (started in 2020).
So assuming they pay $2000 a year in PRO fees, that's roughly $40 a week, $10 a day for the days they have music. Do you think they are profiting an extra $10 a day when they have music? Of course they are (+ whatever they are paying the performers)! That is the point, right? To bring in more people to spend more money.

As already mentioned, if you are a songwriter and perform your own songs, you can self-report on your PRO website. You don't need to have a publisher, you can self-publish, and collect the performance royalties for both writing and publishing. Of course if you perform at a place that says 'originals only' (meaning they are not paying for licenses), you won't get any performance royalties! The actual amount you get from your PRO does depend on the PRO itself, and the formulas they use, but it isn't 'pennies'. For me its a couple of hundred bucks every year - more than I get from streaming royalties through CDBaby!

As to the 'strongarm' tactics that everyone complains about. These don't happen until the venue has repeatedly ignored letters to pay up. And yes, the letters do get nastier each time they are ignored. If the venue would call up the PRO when they got that first letter, they could talk over the fees, work out details (there are different amounts depending on number of nights there is music and how many seats and if cover charges are charged). Unless the venue is large, the chances of the venue being taken to court by the PRO are very small, its not worth it (dollar-wise) for the PRO to do so - a lawyer fee would eat up the first 5+ years of PRO fees they might collect. I've encountered a few venues that when I tried to report my songs to BMI, the venue was listed as 'unlicensed, have ignored repeated attempts to collect license fees' - meaning I can't get my (earned) performance royalties. So I don't go back to those places - and they continue to have music.
If the venue has recorded music through Pandora/Spotify, etc they are paying license fee that way, same thing if they have a juke box service.

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

: So I have to pay some goon to play my own original material in public?

No, the venue pays, then, if you self-report to your PRO, you get money from them!

[TwangGang]

Does it make any difference if the venue is open to the public or a private club?

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

I'm just wondering how successful a "warm & cuddly" PRO guy would be, getting the average venue owner to pay up?

sincerely,

Frank McCynical

Good question, not to mention the question of how many venues do operate for years without paying fees,, never make the step to initiate contact with the PROs and set up paying fees, then cop an attitude when the PRO's finally do come calling ? All the while consider themselves to be fair minded and staunch advocates for law and order and think people should pay their fair share when it is somebody else trying to game the system some other way ?????????

How many IRS tax evasion agents are warm and cuddly ?

[Graylocks]

Thanks for explaining it all so well, Mike! Factual and clear.

[birdsong]

Originally Posted by Graylocks

Thanks for explaining it all so well, Mike! Factual and clear.

I agree, thanks. That was a fine encapsulation of all that's been swirling around here........ much clearer to me at this point. I can see why this engenders such strong reactions....... and part of that is the usual culprit (not understanding some of these details and/or history).