Can't learn to love tabs

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by JoeNewbie

You are referring to the cheap amateur tabs. Bad example. Argument invalid.

I think he was referring to mine. Now I'm hurt

Anyway, regarding the note stem issue: Those tabs were written for learning songs, not for sight-reading in front of a live audience. These are solo fingerstyle pieces, not session music.

[Allman_Fan]

I guess I really want beginners here to know that. if you aspire to . . .

I think it would be more insightful (to me, anyway) if you gave a correct, more definitive ending to this idea.

What types of jobs require that you read standard notation? On one hand, I don't see any guitar players in my local symphony. Then again, there are the guys on the Leno, Conan shows, etc, and I'll bet they HAVE to read standard. In the middle, I'll bet, are the session players in Nashville; they probably don't HAVE to read standard, but I 'll bet a lot of them can.

So what are the jobs like? Long term, short term? Who is the boss, what is the finished product? Do you have to be a member of a union? What other intruments do you play with? Do you play mostly amplified? Live or recorded?

I think this would be most beneficial to those just starting out.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by mmmaak

I think he was referring to mine. Now I'm hurt

Anyway, regarding the note stem issue: Those tabs were written for learning songs, not for sight-reading in front of a live audience. These are solo fingerstyle pieces, not session music.

Call the Malaysian human rights!!!

Those "text" tabs are fine for personal notes or for very easy songs but I personally skip them when I encounter them on the web...

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by JoeNewbie

Those "text" tabs are fine for personal notes or for very easy songs but I personally skip them when I encounter them on the web...

I think we're talking about different things here. Not sure if you consider the tab clips I posted earlier "easy songs", but they definitely were not ASCII "text" tabs

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by mmmaak

I think we're talking about different things here. Not sure if you consider the tab clips I posted earlier "easy songs", but they definitely were not ASCII "text" tabs

Alright -- in that case I don't understand the comment "rhythms are hard to read - I mean, c'mon a slightly longer line to indicate half verses quarter notes". I thought this was in reference to the "text" tabs.

I personally like the Hal Leonard and Mel Bay way of doing things. Notes and rhythm in standard notation, guitar specific instructions in tab (hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, vibrato, etc.). You need both to have the full set of instructions. In this situation, standard notation and tab complement each other.

[DupleMeter]

Okay - I apologize - it was condescending. Not my intention - just worded poorly.

Here's the rub: I teach my students like a music conservatory/music school would. No music conservatory is going to teach TAB (New England Conservatory, Boston Conservatory, Hartt, Oberlin, Berklee, etc all teach standard notation). And there is the philosophical divide we are gazing into here.

As to the "TAB is only accepted by TAB readers" comment. What I meant to express was: in the world of music, TAB is only used by a very small minority of musicians. It is not accepted by the overwhelming majority - despite the overwhelming majority of guitarists who rely on it, they are still a very small minority. From a teaching perspective, with an eye to getting a student ready to work in the majority of musical situations that occur for the average musician (because the whole record deal > fame thing is a crap shoot at best), it is simply not prudent to waste time on TAB (it's pretty self-explanatory anyway) and not focus on standard notation.

The issue comes down to reference. In my world of music - I couldn't do what I do without reading standard notation, and reading it well. I can sit in with an orchestra on friday, and jazz combo (or big band) on saturday, with a church gig on sunday. All paid, union scale or better and all because I can read. And that's what I preach to my students.

My students all get it, and most of them are my students because of that. For many of them guitar is a 2nd (or 3rd) instrument and they already understand the importance of a common, universal language.

I suppose this all makes me music snob - the same way someone who uses the proper form of who & whom is an english snob. So be it. I probably am.

But I think here is where I should bow out. I have a decidedly unpopular opinion and it is only stirring up tempers. That's not my intention, and I'm not feeling good about it.

If anyone is comfortable with who they are as a guitarist/musician - then they should be content.

My sincerest apologies to anyone I've offended. My passion for music speaks before my brain puts it all together. I only want to push everyone to greatness. Sometimes that push is taken as a shove. Or, as Shakespeare put it "in striving for better oft we mar what's well."

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by JoeNewbie

Alright -- in that case I don't understand the comment "rhythms are hard to read - I mean, c'mon a slightly longer line to indicate half verses quarter notes". I thought this was in reference to the "text" tabs.

See post #35, and my subsequent reply.

He was referring to my hybrid tab which, although an improvement over plain "text" tabs (in my opinion), does not convey as much dynamic information as standard notation. But that is not it's objective, of course.

In the end, I think that an "imperfect" system that allows amateurs to dive right into music making without too much effort is, in many ways, "better" than a "perfect" system that could potentially turn off the informally-trained player. Take note of the many " "s

[wthurman]

I use tabs all the time - my word processor and resulting documents would be useless without them.

[Laird_Williams]

Originally Posted by wthurman

I use tabs all the time - my word processor and resulting documents would be useless without them.

I have a card-key index to help me keep tabs on my ring binders that have tabs separating all my transcriptions, which include tabs ;-p

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by mmmaak

See post #35, and my subsequent reply.

He was referring to my hybrid tab which, although an improvement over plain "text" tabs (in my opinion), does not convey as much dynamic information as standard notation. But that is not it's objective, of course.

In the end, I think that an "imperfect" system that allows amateurs to dive right into music making without too much effort is, in many ways, "better" than a "perfect" system that could potentially turn off the informally-trained player. Take note of the many " "s

The problem is, I don't think standard notation is "perfect" in any way, especially when you consider the modern ways to play the guitar.

Ever thought what it would be like to learn some Hendrix in standard notation?

[JoeCharter]

DupleMeter,

It's all cool with me. I wasn't particularly offended but disagreed with your arguments.

I think everyone should learn music theory because it's important to know what makes a chord, why there are sharps and flats in certain scales, etc. I'll push this even further by stating that there is no better instrument to learn music theory on than the piano. I would hate to learn the basics on the guitar, really.

Standard notation is also important because it allows you to communicate with other musicians in an almost universal way. Certain types of music, such as classical, are mostly available in standard notation only (although that is starting to change).

So I do agree that serious musicians should learn the whole package.

What I disagree with are comments on how tablature is "paint by numbers" and all those unjustified derogatory comments. If one chooses to learn a couple of tunes using tabs and skips music theory and all the rest, that's their prerogative.

I've taken formal lessons in sight-reading for years but when it comes to the guitar, and especially the modern guitar, I think tablature is a wonderful tool.

The classical school and the popular music school are very different indeed. How would you write a SRV solo in standard notation? It would be one heckuva mess.

[Brent Hutto]

Let's face it...Standard Notation presumes to shed the most possible light on the Platonic ideal of the piece created by the Composer. Tablature arises from the more Aristotelian concept that, whatever the Composer's idea, the thing that matters is one concrete instance of music reflecting the ideal.

Quite simple. It's a debate that continued since Classical antiquity. We won't solve it here.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

Let's face it...Standard Notation presumes to shed the most possible light on the Platonic ideal of the piece created by the Composer. Tablature arises from the more Aristotelian concept that, whatever the Composer's idea, the thing that matters is one concrete instance of music reflecting the ideal.

Quite simple. It's a debate that continued since Classical antiquity. We won't solve it here.

Very interesting post.

In classical music, performers have limited latitude whereas in popular music, anything goes. Two very different worlds and philosophies. I love both.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

Let's face it...Standard Notation presumes to shed the most possible light on the Platonic ideal of the piece created by the Composer. Tablature arises from the more Aristotelian concept that, whatever the Composer's idea, the thing that matters is one concrete instance of music reflecting the ideal.

? Well that clears up things.

[Brent Hutto]

Perhaps friend Mmmaak can be our Hhheegel.