Story from changing from TABS to EAR PLAYING only.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Tomi, you're kinda taking full advantage of this thread to hawk your website, but the only proof I've seen of your method is a video where you play 60 simple melodies over 4 cowboy chords.

An awful lot of foot stomping and posturing here. Time to cut through the crap. For any beginners reading:

1. Learn by any and all means.
2. Tab is fine, but guitar centric. Consider branching out in case you get into music that tab just doesn't exist for. Don't be embarrased about needing tabs for music you can't yet "hear."
3. Musical notation is awesome because it's universal...once you get it you can play songs you've never heard, written for ANY instrument, and communicate with other instruments.
4. Developing your ears is important for anyone interested in improvising and playing with others. It can also allow you to pick up chords and melodies rather quickly, and can help you "pre hear" what an idea sounds like.
5. Balance is key. Being a "capital M" Musician assumes a lot of skills--you won't achieve them over night and you won't achieve them if you willfully shut yourself off from knowledge.

Thanks for some common sense, Jeff.

[TomiPaldanius]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It actually depends on the tune, Tomi. I'm actually big into finding things by ear, so if the student was ready, I might coach them through the process.

if not, I'd likely start with a chord chart, maybe draw up some bar lines for changes, and see if my student can find the rhythm. For others who like things more concrete, I might write out the basic rhythm and some variations in notation.

We'd learn the main parts, then chart the form. If we've done other songs, we'd talk similarities in structure, bar length, etc. Then we'd olay through the form, for raw beginners just together (or just the student, if playing along with them makes them nervous) or for a student with some tunes under their belt, along with a drum machine.

For a more "intermediate" student I might look to see if the tune has any special techniques I'd like to highlight...for an advanced student we might even analyze it harmonically, again, looking for similarities/commonalities...I use roman numerals for that.

I think your approach is more advanced options wise than mine. I have to say that I am pretty simple guy with simple music taste so excuse me if I don't understand everything you say (Now I play stupid instead of victim).

So many questions came up.

1. How you prepare students to be ready to pick up songs by ear?
2. Do you teach the songs rhythm guitar and melody as separate parts. Or what you mean about the rhythm from chord charts?
3. Do you chart the form INTRO, VERSE, BRIDGE, CHORUS or A-B-C-D?
4. How often you see similarities with your approach of teaching. How often they notice them? How you name them. Degrees? Certain progression names? Lenny Breau had the "Down The Line" progression for example.
5. Do you teach the melody with drum machine? Do you encourage students to hum the melody and allow them to develop their inner sense of melody?
6. If you use roman numbers is the minor i or vi or something else?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by TomiPaldanius

I think your approach is more advanced options wise than mine. I have to say that I am pretty simple guy with simple music taste so excuse me if I don't understand everything you say (Now I play stupid instead of victim).

So many questions came up.

1. How you prepare students to be ready to pick up songs by ear?
2. Do you teach the songs rhythm guitar and melody as separate parts. Or what you mean about the rhythm from chord charts?
3. Do you chart the form INTRO, VERSE, BRIDGE, CHORUS or A-B-C-D?
4. How often you see similarities with your approach of teaching. How often they notice them? How you name them. Degrees? Certain progression names? Lenny Breau had the "Down The Line" progression for example.
5. Do you teach the melody with drum machine? Do you encourage students to hum the melody and allow them to develop their inner sense of melody?
6. If you use roman numbers is the minor i or vi or something else?

Let's see if I can answer without getting too long...

1. I teach students to listen for basslines/lowest note in chord and "chord quality," I.e. major or minor...I have a handful of tunes I use that I know use little in the way of extensions as "beginner ear trainer" tunes.

2.Depends. Some students want to learn chords and sing, others to play instrumental renditions...depends on need. My beginners start with melodies...in notation, as they are learning that at the same time.

3. Depends again...rock and pop, verse chorus bridge etc....jazz, A, B etc. Different musics have different language attached to them, for better or worse...

4. Similarities are everywhere...what gets noticed and named depends on level again...a beginner might notice multiple tunes have a bridge or solo after the second chorus, or that the last chorus is 16 bars instead of 8...a more advanced student might notice a key change, or how it's set up by going to the V of the new key. I try to use common terms and "correct" musical language when naming things, as both get thrown around (I.e, I want my students to know an "8 bar bridge" and "middle 8" are the same thing.

5. I'm a drum machine dictator. Time is what seperates guitar owners from guitar players...play with me, play to a beat, or click, tap a foot or whatever, but I'm a stickler for time. Singing, maybe...I encourage it in closed door practice, but I never force a self conscious student to sing in front of me...you embarras a student it takes a long time to get them back.

6. Yes, lowercase for minor. Some folks like "nashville numbers." I do not.

[TomiPaldanius]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Let's see if I can answer without getting too long...

1. I teach students to listen for basslines/lowest note in chord and "chord quality," I.e. major or minor...I have a handful of tunes I use that I know use little in the way of extensions as "beginner ear trainer" tunes.

2.Depends. Some students want to learn chords and sing, others to play instrumental renditions...depends on need. My beginners start with melodies...in notation, as they are learning that at the same time.

3. Depends again...rock and pop, verse chorus bridge etc....jazz, A, B etc. Different musics have different language attached to them, for better or worse...

4. Similarities are everywhere...what gets noticed and named depends on level again...a beginner might notice multiple tunes have a bridge or solo after the second chorus, or that the last chorus is 16 bars instead of 8...a more advanced student might notice a key change, or how it's set up by going to the V of the new key. I try to use common terms and "correct" musical language when naming things, as both get thrown around (I.e, I want my students to know an "8 bar bridge" and "middle 8" are the same thing.

5. I'm a drum machine dictator. Time is what seperates guitar owners from guitar players...play with me, play to a beat, or click, tap a foot or whatever, but I'm a stickler for time. Singing, maybe...I encourage it in closed door practice, but I never force a self conscious student to sing in front of me...you embarras a student it takes a long time to get them back.

6. Yes, lowercase for minor. Some folks like "nashville numbers." I do not.

Thanks for the answers. I appreciate it. I have a different approach but again, it does not mean it is more right or wrong.

What you think Jeff if me and you setup a live conference for Acoustic Guitar members how to learn songs? I show my approach and you show yours. I've never done this with other teachers but as I see you as an established jazz guitarist, it might have very interesting outcome.

Lets say 30 minutes presentation each. This way this thread will have some value for the readers. I live in Bangkok and it is 10:30 pm here. I can do it next week if you (or I) need more preparation time. Or tomorrow this time or few hours earlier would be great if we get 10-15 people to join.

I can setup the room/link. What you think and what others think about the idea?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I have a handful of tunes I use that I know use little in the way of extensions as "beginner ear trainer" tunes.

Do you mind giving some examples?

(Everything you describe aligns quite closely with my experience btw.)

[MICHAEL MYERS]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

I'll bet you do, Mr. Meyers, I'll bet you do. Unfortunately, for everyone involved in this thread who would looooove to see more of your particular type of botherings, I see no real benefit to responding to your post. I've seen your sort of tactics before and I'm not interested in them. Have a good day.

Sorry Jan, didn't realize I was on your personal dislike list. If you could point out some examples of my previous "tactics" to me I'd be most grateful.

[mr. beaumont]

Tomi, I like the idea but I don't think I have the tech setup or the quiet time with a 2 year old and a 12 hour time difference...

Jon, I might need a day or so, but I can try to catalog a list...would be beneficial to me too...I can say for sure, I use a good deal of Tom Petty, Ramones, and Taylor Swift

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Tomi, I like the idea but I don't think I have the tech setup or the quiet time with a 2 year old and a 12 hour time difference...

Jon, I might need a day or so, but I can try to catalog a list...would be beneficial to me too...I can say for sure, I use a good deal of Tom Petty, Ramones, and Taylor Swift

Ah yes, Taylor Swift, such an under-rated jazz guitarist...

She was very useful to me with one of my younger students, a 10-year-old girl who was a real fan. Not too hard to persuade her to learn what she could by ear - singing and playing the melodies first, chords later. It was really noticeable now quickly she improved once she had that connection, realised she could do a lot of it herself.

[mr. beaumont]

Ain't she though?

For jazz students we start with melodies and learn a bunch of chords before I have them try and pick up chords from a recording...that's a tough one, but the concept's still the same...listen to the bass, identify quality, try to hear what's on top...