Puzzled by projection

[David Eastwood]

I have to make a confession. I’ve been reading for ages here from several contributors about a given guitar’s ability to ‘project’.

I’ve gradually come to the realization that I have no idea what it means.

I’d love to get some enlightenment. So, if projection is important to you, could you do me a favour and let me know what it signifies to you, and what criteria you use to assess its quality (if that’s the right word)?

I’m asking in this sub-forum specifically, because it seems to come up here a bit more often than in the general areas.

[jdinco]

I have the same question David, when I read it, I assume it means that it just don't sound that good to the player. Probably wrong, but that's what I thought. No depth or resonance.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi David,

I'll have a go.

I once went to a Stefan Grossman concert in a largisg Victorian theatre, and it was a sell out, maybe 4-500 seats?
For some reason tere was no sound system.

SG waked out on stage with two guitars, and if memory serves, he had a Martin 00 and 000. Smallish guitars anyway.

He explained about the lack of amplification, and offered us our ticket money back , or he'd play completely acustically. I don't remember anyone leaving.

Those prewar Martin guitars filled the auditorium and we heard every note ... not loud, but clearly.

That's what I'd call projection.

I've seen performers in small folk club, strumming away at large, heavy jumbos or dreadnoughts (let's say, less expensive versions)

Yes, you could hear them, up to a point, but it was a muzzy messy sound .. that's NOT projection ... that's noise.

How's that?

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Hi David,

I'll have a go.

I once went to a Stefan Grossman concert in a largisg Victorian theatre, and it was a sell out, maybe 4-500 seats?
For some reason tere was no sound system.

SG waked out on stage with two guitars, and if memory serves, he had a Martin 00 and 000. Smallish guitars anyway.

He explained about the lack of amplification, and offered us our ticket money back , or he'd play completely acustically. I don't remember anyone leaving.

Those prewar Martin guitars filled the auditorium and we heard every note ... not loud, but clearly.

That's what I'd call projection.

I've seen performers in small folk club, strumming away at large, heavy jumbos or dreadnoughts (let's say, less expensive versions)

Yes, you could hear them, up to a point, but it was a muzzy messy sound .. that's NOT projection ... that's noise.

How's that?

If pressed for an answer, that’s pretty much what I would have come up with. That makes sense to me.

However, most of the comments I’ve observed about projection seem to be from the player’s point of view, not the audience’s. I think you’ve highlighted why I perhaps have some difficulty with the concept.

Jd & Eats;

Very good question. I suppose that I have been the most vocal concerning guitar projection. My concern has focused on nylon strung carbon fiber guitars.

The easiest description of what I mean by projection is "volume." My standard for nylon string guitar volume has been wooden instruments, classical and flamenco guitars in particular.

I've played the Laviora, Blackbirds, Rainsongs and the Emeralds. Blackbird's flamenco Rider came very close to wooden projection, but my conclusion is that that while CF stands up well relative to tonal qualities, it falters when it comes to volume. My comparison point has been my brother-in-law's Ramirez.

I don't hear the same diminishment with steel string cf guitars. And I don't see the diminishment as a fatal flaw. My Emerald X10, like my Rainsong Parlor, sounds sweet and has enough projection for song writing and small venues--plugged in it projects just fine. It's the acoustic projection of cf nylons that has bothered me.

I am now in the process of checking out my impressions with the order of a wooden Kremona that comes very close to the dimensions of my Emerald X10. My guess is that the kremona will best the Emerald, relative to volume. It won't come close to the comfort of the 10 and it will probably be a wash relative to tone.

I hope that addresses the question.

[David Eastwood]

Thank you, Evan. That makes it very clear - it’s volume that’s at stake for you, and, presumably, volume from the player’s vantage point.

I’m interested in others’ views on the subject - Andy brought up the notion of projection as an instrument’s ability to ‘carry’ to an audience, which I guess is what my mental definition was favouring.

[esimms86]

While I agree with all of the previous comments in this thread, I need to also point out one more criteria: how well a guitar’s tone and volume comes through in a jam session with other musical instruments. Play and/or listen to an Emerald X30 in the midst of a folk, bluegrass or blues jam and you’ll immediately know what I mean. And also consider how well a guitar mixes well unamplified when paired with the human voice.

[mot]

I have a Kestrel, an X20 and Lucky13 that I try to play regularly. My sources tell me that acoustically the Kestrel is loudest at a distance and the X20 is the most quiet. This pseudo experiment was conducted outside at a farmer's market and I didn't have all three guitars with me ever so there's a lot I didn't/couldn't control for. I did use 1.5mm triangle picks and was probably strumming similar songs.

I'm not good enough to finger pick in public plus the sound doesn't carry.

I am not sure about which one is loudest in living room playing, but I find the X20 feels loudest to me when I am sitting on the couch.

[guitarwebguy]

I remember when learning to speak in public settings that projection was as important as what I was saying. It was not just loudness but also clarity. The SG example earlier is a good example. I’ve heard dreads that were loud but muddy and indistinct and 000’s that were like crystal clear but could not be heard beyond 20 feet. Projection, I’ve noticed, depends on the room and the ambient noise, the instrument, which in turn depends upon the material the instrument is made, the strings and last but certainly not least, the player. Comments I’ve heard from folks when I play my Emerald X20-12 is that they love the clarity, but that I need to play it louder. This has been true regardless no matter what the space. The sound projects with wonderful clarity and tone, but I have to make it louder through my playing. What I find interesting is that plugged in, that clarity remains and the loudness aspect is being covered by playing through an amp. In a sense, it is the inherent characteristic of the instrument. I have a friend who plays a an old Guild from the 1970’s that you can hear over and above anyone else, not the greatest tone but very very loud. Great instrument for sing-a-longs. Terrible for for fingerpicking, leads or jazz. Clarity of tone for me is the sonic fingerprint of a guitar. It’s why I have the instruments that I have. Forgive my rambling (;-))

I try to keep my sense of projection separate from other sound variables like tone, pitch, rate (think staccato versus sustain), and clarity. They all interrelate but I think they can be dissected and considered on their own.

My nylon string guitars have had nice tonal qualities, good intonation, variable rate depending on how played, and great clarity. But lack the volume of a good wooden guitar.

SpruceTop mentions that his new Adamas has a double top and I wonder if CF nylon string guitars would have enhanced volume with such a face??

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by EvanB

I try to keep my sense of projection separate from other sound variables like tone, pitch, rate (think staccato versus sustain), and clarity. They all interrelate but I think they can be dissected and considered on their own.

My nylon string guitars have had nice tonal qualities, good intonation, variable rate depending on how played, and great clarity. But lack the volume of a good wooden guitar.

SpruceTop mentions that his new Adamas has a double top and I wonder if CF nylon string guitars would have enhanced volume with such a face??

Evan, my new Adamas I 2087-8 is a laminate top, as are all Adamas models, and not a double-top. The top consists of two outer layers of .005-inch thick carbon fiber with an inner layer of wood (species varies by model). The entire soundboard is .035-inch thick and makes it responsive to a wide-range of right-hand techniques.

[Aspiring]

I will add to this thread that of the composite instruments that I own and have sampled my nylon x7 is also light on volume but my BlackBird El Capitan out volumes all of my guitars including the wood ones. The tone is quite nice too.

The ergos vs the Emerald are distinctly lacking though.

All my comments regarding volume focus on nylon strung guitars.

[GuitarDoc]

I’ve played at churches for years. My 6 string martin could fill the hall in the ‘70’s. Later my 12 in a bigger church with an amplified singer. Segovia filled concert halls unamplified. But then I tried to play in a tent un amplified with my composite acoustic. Dead.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by GuitarDoc

I’ve played at churches for years. My 6 string martin could fill the hall in the ‘70’s. Later my 12 in a bigger church with an amplified singer. Segovia filled concert halls unamplified. But then I tried to play in a tent un amplified with my composite acoustic. Dead.

Four different scenarios. Four different guitars. A little difficult to draw any conclusions, wouldn’t you agree?